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 Post subject: Artillery casualties
PostPosted: Wed Sep 23, 2020 8:01 pm 
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I'll start by admitting I have been out of the saddle for a long time and I'm still not as comfortable with the HPS titles as I was with the original TS games. One thing I have noticed, and I presuming it is an engine change, is the casualties that my artillery batteries are taking. Union guns destroy mine with ease and Union regiments kill crews like there is no tomorrow. I on the other hand do not seem to have the same amount of success against Union batteries. Is this an engine change?

I have lost more crews in the last two battles than I have in the entire time I've played the series going back to the TS days combined. These aren't batteries being overrun, it is batteries with crews being killed then overrun. The auto defense fire is even getting in on the action. What am I missing? It is frustrating to say the least, all the more so since I'm obviously missing something. Any insight would be appreciated.

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 Post subject: Re: Artillery casualties
PostPosted: Thu Sep 24, 2020 11:25 am 
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Lt. Gen Bird,

Two things you may not be aware of, one is a change made for Chancellorsville game.

When an artillery unit is fired upon by small arms fire, there is a probability that the artillery unit will become Uncrewed.
This probability is determined by the Crew Kill Parameter Data Value.
For a given Crew Kill value of C and a nominal strength loss of L from small arms fire, then:
Probability of crew killed = L / C
Thus if the nominal strength loss is 25 and the Crew Kill value is 100, there would be a 25% chance the crew would become killed.
If the crew is not killed it takes the Fatigue for the losses it would have incurred from the fire casualties as if it was infantry.

You can see this value in the Parameter Data
Fire Modifiers
Enfiladed: 40% Cavalry: 40% Gunboat: 1/10 Crew Kill: 150
This can vary from game to game.

The second one is something I recently learned. We were told in the BG games that all fire is handled separately.
Naturally we thought the same was true in the HPS/JTS games but it seems we were wrong.
I have been informed of the following.

Firing multiple units at once does not increase the effectiveness of fire.
Each unit's fire result is handled separately then the total casualties and fatigue are added together and the losses displayed.
However, there are some advantages to firing stacked units.
Firing stacked units results in all the casualties being added together before checks are made for whether or not a unit will check morale
and whether or not guns are destroyed or crews are killed.

I don't know what the value was for crew kills prior to Chancellorsville as it was in the main program but it may be lower in some scenarios now.
Couple that with your opponent firing stacked units at you and the possible use of the Density Fire Modifier may explain why it seems to you crews are being killed more often.

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 Post subject: Re: Artillery casualties
PostPosted: Sat Sep 26, 2020 12:07 pm 
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GEN Miller,

Thank you for the explanation. I knew something was fundamentally different this would explain it. It really takes the site out of the batteries. I know they were somewhat neutered during the TS\HPS transition and this does so even more. It is not so scary to march up to those massed batteries anymore. Just another evolution in tactics ;)

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 Post subject: Re: Artillery casualties
PostPosted: Sun Sep 27, 2020 4:40 pm 
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Firing multiple units at once does not increase the effectiveness of fire.
Each unit's fire result is handled separately then the total casualties and fatigue are added together and the losses displayed.


Ken,

This confuses me. If the reference is to artillery vs. infantry, then correct. If the algorithm for artillery vs. artillery fire has changed from the Battleground/HPS/Tiller games, then this would have been a game engine modification which went unannounced. As you stated in your post, the Battleground/HPS system treated each firing artillery unit separately and did not accumulate results from multiple fires.

Lt. Gen Bird also mentions artillery vs. artillery, in which case I don't believe the second sentence applies (at least not to any testing I have ever done). In short, a 6-gun Union battery is more effective firing at an individual target, than the results achieved by firing its 2-gun sections even as a group. Ken knows this, but for those unfamiliar with the Battleground system, artillery vs. artillery resulted in either No Effect, Fatigue loss, or X gun loss. The system did not accumulate results from one fire to the next, treating each unit as a separate "battery" regardless of size. My testing has shown that this algorithm was migrated to the HPS system. If it has been modified, then that would be good to know because it has an actual play effect.

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 Post subject: Re: Artillery casualties
PostPosted: Sun Sep 27, 2020 9:00 pm 
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Robert,

I was told that the fire itself is conducted separately, each units casualties being determined individually.
I was also told that each firing action results in a check for whether or not a morale check is made, whether the crew is killed and whether a gun is destroyed from artillery fire.
The difference being if they are fired separately the check is made after each unit fires.
If they fire as one action all casualties from each individual unit in a stack firing are added together before these checks are made.

You fire a stack of 3 units, they get 5, 10 and 12 casualties.
If fired separately the target rolls for morale checks, crew and gun loss once with each loss.
Gun loss (Artillery Fire only) Loss/25
Crew Kill Loss/120 (crew kill from pdt, this varies)
Morale Check Loss/Loss+25

These numbers are turned into a percentage.
So if all three units were guns firing at an artillery unit the gun loss chances would be
20% and 40% and 48%
If fired as a stack you roll once with 27 casualties.
108% 1 gun killed and an 8% chance of a second.
If they were infantry firing at a gun odds of crew kill are
4%, 8%, 10% or 22.5%
So you get 3 low odds chances or 1 higher odds chance.
In the case of the gun kill you got a definite one gun killed and a possible second vs a slim chance to get 3.
Your choice of which way to go. I'm just offering the information.

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 Post subject: Re: Artillery casualties
PostPosted: Mon Sep 28, 2020 12:46 pm 
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Ken,

Thanks. One has always needed to select a firing unit. The game engine now considers multiple selected units to be treated as one, and accumulates their individual results. This is how I understand it. While this works for offensive fire, can you shed any light as to whether any changes were made in the method by which the AI chooses units for defensive fire in Turn-based play?

Using the example of a 6-gun battery and its component 2-gun sections, has similar logic been installed defensively. The AI "selects" the firing unit in opportunity fire. If the unit is the 6-gun, it fires at half value as 3-gun. Does the AI now "select" all artillery in the firing hex and halve that? If not, then larger gun units have an advantage over smaller defensively, even though the total guns in the hex might be the same.

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 Post subject: Re: Artillery casualties
PostPosted: Mon Sep 28, 2020 9:07 pm 
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Robert,

I thought the AI firing was addressed some time ago. Looked through the changes files and found
Changes for Campaign Chancellorsville 1.01
- AI firing is now by stack instead of by unit.
This was 2009 according to HPS website.
Not sure if this is offensive fire only or includes defensive fire.
To be truthful the only time I've played the AI was for playtesting.

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 Post subject: Re: Artillery casualties
PostPosted: Mon Sep 28, 2020 10:37 pm 
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krmiller_usa wrote:
Robert,

I thought the AI firing was addressed some time ago. Looked through the changes files and found
Changes for Campaign Chancellorsville 1.01
- AI firing is now by stack instead of by unit.
This was 2009 according to HPS website.
Not sure if this is offensive fire only or includes defensive fire.
To be truthful the only time I've played the AI was for playtesting.


This probably refers to ADF in phased play. Used to be units fired individually in ADF, but for some time now they have fired by stack.
I liked the old way better even though it took longer, but it isn't an option.

Mike Mihalik
LtGen CSA

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 Post subject: Re: Artillery casualties
PostPosted: Tue Sep 29, 2020 3:51 pm 
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Robert,

Just ran a test to verify and Gen. Mihalik has it right, the AI fires stacks in Phase Mode defensive fire.
In Turn Mode AI still does defensive fire with single units.
All defensive fire in Turn Mode is at half strength, this is the calculated Fire Value that is halved.
Basically you half the number of men in the calculation with guns set at 50 men per gun.
The only exception being final defensive fire before Melee if that option is selected.
Another reason to play in phases.

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 Post subject: Re: Artillery casualties
PostPosted: Wed Sep 30, 2020 12:23 am 
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krmiller_usa wrote:
Another reason to play in phases.

Amen!

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Lieutenant General Christian Hecht
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 Post subject: Re: Artillery casualties
PostPosted: Mon Oct 05, 2020 4:41 pm 
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Except if one is playing MP, in which one really has no choice.

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