American Civil War Game Club (ACWGC)

Gentlemen, <salute>

being new to the club I do not know if this has been discussed before.
In HPS campaign games the fire strength of up to 1000 rifles per hex seems odd. Given a scale of about 120 yards per hex and a two rank line, shoulder to shoulder, a maximum of 400 men firing out of a hex seems more realistic. A regiment of 1000 men would have a frontage of over 300 yards, btw.

Regards,
Michael Gandt, Field Lieutenant, 2/3/II ANV CSA


Michael Gandt
Field Lieutenant, 2nd Cavalry Brigade, 3rd Cavalry Division, II Corps, ANV

Hi, Lieutenant,
You are exactly right, and this has been addressed before over the years. Back before the HPS system there was Talonsoft, also programmed by John Tiller. A couple of fellows named Frost and Norris modified the system so that only 400 infantry could stack in a hex. This necessitated breaking down the larger regiments into battalions. It provided a more realistic model but was less fun to play, imho. I think that if you wanted to modify the parameter data to allow lower stacking in HPS you could do it. Ken Miller provided a site where he explains how to modify parameter data. here is the URL.

http://www.acwgc.org/ACWCO_Engineering/

MG Mike Mihalik
1/III/AoMiss/CSA

Gentlemen,

I'm not a "serious" student of the Civil War in as far as frontage, number of firers, and other issues that have been or would be brought up. However, based on a two rank line mentioned you could still accomodate at least 800 troops in a hex, which for melee purposes could prove valuable. Perhaps the answer is not limiting stacking to 400 and further breaking down regiments, but in limiting the modifiers (or however they'd be called) to reflect a maximum of 400 firers from a hex regardless of the actual number occupying the hex?

I think it's a slippery slope, because then if 500 troops occupy a hex do you assume a two rank file and decide that they have 250 troops firing instead of the 400 maximum?

Major Neal Hebert
4/1/I AotM (Bayou Devils)
Quartermaster, VMI

Gentlemen,

Sorry for the second post, but I'm not a very computer-literate person and couldn't find an "edit" funciton lol. After thinking about it a second, what prevents the second rank of 400 from firing after the first rank has fired?

Major Neal Hebert
4/1/I AotM (Bayou Devils)
Quartermaster, VMI

Gentlemen,

thank you for your replies. Neal, the 400 men figure already takes into consideration two ranks, 200 men each. You cannot get more men shoulder to shoulder in a frontage of 120 yards, and only the two front ranks would be able to fire. I do not mind being able to stack 1000 men in a hex, but only about 400 should be able to actually fire. Consider the rest in a second or third line of two ranks each behind the first.

Michael Gandt, Field Lieutenat, 2/3/II ANV CSA



Michael Gandt
Field Lieutenant, 2nd Cavalry Brigade, 3rd Cavalry Division, II Corps, ANV

Gentlemen

I think you're geting yourselfs wrapped around the axle a bit.

1000 men can be stacked in a hex, which is quite feasible because even using Michael's numbers you could fit 160,000 men (400 wide by 400 deep)

Seeing firing and movement are based on 20 minutes of time allowing a firing strength of 1000 would be 1000 men firing once, or 500 men firing twice, or 250 men firing 4 times, well within the time frame alloted.

What is critical that the "number of men" firing results in an appropriate number of men being removed by casualty from the other side. This would come from the result calculations.

Jack W

Cpt Jack Waldron
2nd Bde/1st Div/XIX Corps/AoS/USA

Hi Jack,

I've seen comments in other places about how stacking units together at the maximum level allowed for melee was not historical and unfair and have countered that it's a basic principle of warfare; use overwhelming force at the point of attack. We may be refighting a battle, but it's not a reenactment, otherwise the outcome is already given.

The gaming system is the gaming system, and our strategy should be based on that. That's how I play.

Major Neal Hebert
4/1/I AotM (Bayou Devils)
Quartermaster, VMI

The 1000 stacking is of course a comprimise. You can change the value in the pdt file but you are limited by the scenario design. If it has units greater than the stacking factor you choose, those units become overstacked and useless so you have to be careful when altering it.

As for how many should be able to fire out of a hex the standard two rank line had 2.77 men per yard. With a little crowding you could probably use a figure of 3 per yard and all could fire. While regiments often did form more dense formation it was usually by forming companies or division behind each other. In such formations only the front two rank line could fire. There was no attempt to pass lines through each other so others could fire like a British three or four rank line. These higher density formations were usually formed for movement and/or assaults.

Limiting stacking to 1000 is just an artificial means for capping fire and preventing melees from becoming sure things. Unfortunately HPS system doesn't have a separate fire and stack maximums like some board games do.

LG. Kennon Whitehead
Chatham Grays
1/1/III AoM (CSA)

Neal, I agree with you totally. At this level (whether you want to call it grand tactical or operational) there has to be a lot of, shall we say, abstractions. If we could make a playable tactical level game system fot the civil war (such as ASL) then we could eliminate some of the abstractions, but not all... but could you imagine the Battle of Gettysburg at that level...

As a game designer, you try to make games that give a flavor of the battle, that tactics (or strategies) that were used in real life work in the game, and that if both players do precisely as their historical counterparts did you get the historical result. Due to the constraints required to make the game playable, there is going to be a lot of granularity if you look to close at the details.

Now, Im not saying the the HPS game system is perfect.... however, it is playable, it gives the required flavor, and grand tactical manuevers work just as well... massing guns and manpower works like it should. Thus, it works for me. There are things I would change if I could, but I would be worried about their affect on game balance.

Cpt Jack Waldron
2nd Bde/1st Div/XIX Corps/AoS/USA

Gentlemen,
thank you for your replies. I think LG Whitehead is summarizing very well what I was trying to say, namely that the stacking limit should be different from the limit of men that could actually fire during fire combat.
I very well understand that game design is always a compromise and designing a proper simulation sometimes interferes with playability.

I am coming from the board wargaming side of the hobby, playing the "Great Battles of the American Civil War" series by GMT a lot. This series uses the same scale as HPS. It differentiates between stacking ( 750 men/hex)and the strength that can actually resolve fire combat from a hex ( 350 men + one battery/hex).

Do not get me wrong, I like the HPS games a lot and I am certainly willing to play the game as is, but since this is a simulation game one can always improve the model to get closer to reality - provided it is possible given the game engine.

Regards

Michael Gandt
Field Lieutenant, 2nd Cavalry Brigade, 3rd Cavalry Division, II Corps, ANV

One of the key statements in this thread is the 20 minute turn. No one said that 1000 men are firing at exactly the same time. A good infantrymen could fire 3x per minute, so in theory, that would be 60,000 shots if everyone was firing at the same time with the same skill level. Certainly that's not the case, otherwise the loses would be much much higher. And anyway, rarely are 1000 men stacked. I would say the average is 3-500 at the beginning, and that drops significantly after a few turns.


Lt. Col. Richard Walker
I Corps
Army of the Mississippi
2nd Brigade, 3rd Division
"Defenders of Tennessee"