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Arty hundreds of yards in the woods????
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Author:  MSeger [ Thu Jul 22, 2010 3:48 pm ]
Post subject:  Arty hundreds of yards in the woods????
I'm confused about something.

Isn't each hex 150 yards?? I'm starting the battle of Murfreesboro and i've got arty out in the middle of the woods, hundreds (6hexs or more) of yards from any road. This is not uncommon. It seems like a lot of scenarios start this way. Can someone explain the reasoning for position arty in the middle of woods with only a 1 hex shot area and no way to escape when the grey horde decends upon it???? More importantly, how they heck do they get a 6 gun unit hundreds of yards into the woods?? I didn't think they had helicopters in the CW???

Major Gen. Seger
I/I/VIII AoS
Author:  Jefferson H. Davis [ Thu Jul 22, 2010 3:58 pm ]
Post subject: 
The hexes are 125 yards.....If it was a historical scenario, talk to the dead yankee General who ordered em there.....If its fictional, talk to the designer...lol......Oh and as a Reb, I'll just say that what you describe sounds like standard operating proceedure for the yanks....Yhey were most likely hiding....They don't call it the war between the Yellow and the Gray for nothing......

BG Hank Smith
Army of Georgia
Smith's Corp Commanding
Author:  Digglyda [ Thu Jul 22, 2010 7:46 pm ]
Post subject: 
Not all woods are the same ...unfortunately, in a game/simulation they generally are. The only variation we have is between naturally wooded hexes (at 8mp's for Artillery) and Orchards (6mp's for Artillery).

Historically, the wooded terrain around Murfreesboro (at least in the locations where the guns are placed in the scenarios AND especially at that time of year) may well have been quite sparse, with trees well spaced and very light underbrush etc. The restriction on Artillery movement may not have been too great compared to "normal" circumstances, so the 8mp's required is probably way too high.
Ideally, there should be about 3 or 4 different wooded hex types in game including wooded hexes that are impossible for Artillery to negotiate, and the one we have is just an average representation.
You could probably expect Artillery to manage 2 or even 3 hexes of wooded terrain movement in a single 20 minute turn under some circumstances.

Remember the Duke of Wellington when warned against standing at Waterloo with the forest at his back. He dismissed the concern with a glance and the comment that "There's not a scrap of brush in those woods, you could drive a Battery of 6 pounders straight through it ..."


Brigadier-General Jim Wilkes.
2nd Brigade, Cavalry Division, XX Corps.
AoC. U.S.A.
Author:  D.S. Walter [ Thu Jul 22, 2010 9:35 pm ]
Post subject: 
Most likely a design goof. Something like the map terrain changed after the scenario was already done.

On a more general level, in reality forest isn't really forest. For instance, in reality a battery stationed at Shiloh Church fired with effect into Rhea Field, as the woods were very open.

<center>Gen. Walter, USA
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Author:  KWhitehead [ Fri Jul 23, 2010 3:42 am ]
Post subject: 
Probably a victom of one size fits all. The parameter file allows the designer to set the affect of woods in general but it's an average of all the wood types on the map. The reality is more complex depending on whether farmers, animals (cows), or nature has affected the particular area. There is an interesting description in "Maps of Chickamauga" describing a fire fight on the Confederate right at 200 yards in the woods. Apparently there was little underbrush and the trees relatively well spaced. On the other hand you have the Wilderness with its heavy underbrush that probably should disrupt infantry trying to move through it.

Also not shown on these maps because of scale are the various farmer's paths through the woods so they can get to their fields. These could allow horse drawn guns to penatrate easily. Then there is the muscle method used to get guns on Little Round Top.

Forgot to add this: Artillery doctrine (1864 Field Artillery Tactics manual) was to deploy artillery only in the open with open ground protected from fire behind the gun for the caissons. The preferred ground was on a rise just behind the change in slope so the gun carriage and men were protected from direct fire. They tried to avoid woods unless they first had or cut roads behind the wood line so the guns could be withdrawn. It regardless was not a preferred position since fire on the guns could kill the crews by just hitting the trees and letting the splinters do the work. Firing inside of deep woods would be almost as dangereous to the gunners as the enemy.

General Kennon Whitehead
Chatham Grays
2/3/IV AoM (CSA)
Author:  MSeger [ Sat Jul 24, 2010 2:30 pm ]
Post subject: 
That makes more sense.

I just thought it was a good reason to give the rebs a few extra points.
Before the boys surrender those fine peices of arty, i'll have them double load the cannister and keep one patriotic lad behind to pull when "those people" get 10 yards away!! BANG!!!



Major Gen. Seger
I/I/VIII AoS
Author:  mihalik [ Sun Jul 25, 2010 5:28 am ]
Post subject: 
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by KWhitehead</i>
<br />

Also not shown on these maps because of scale are the various farmer's paths through the woods so they can get to their fields. These could allow horse drawn guns to penatrate easily. Then there is the muscle method used to get guns on Little Round Top.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
I have read in "The Long Arm of Lee" that on at least a couple of occasions the Confederates cut a road through the woods to get guns to a desirable position. I suspect that if for some reason there is a battery in the middle of woods, somebody probably created a road to get it there. So there should probably be a trail to the guns, even if it wasn't on the map.

If you go to the Murfreesboro Battlefield Park, you can see a wiard with a broken wheel in a rocky section of the woods. I think it is a 6 lber, so it may be from the battery in the game.

Also, one battery was without horses when the Rebs attacked because the battery commander sent all of his horses to be watered at exactly the wrong time. The guns were captured and he was relieved from duty after the battle.

MG Mike Mihalik
2/3/I/AoMiss/CSA
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