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 Post subject: Victory Points
PostPosted: Sun Nov 12, 2017 6:14 am 
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Fellow Officers.

I am new to JTS ACW games (and this fine Club) and am now completing my second PBEM game finding I am losing badly now that I have lost several artillery units. I read through the forums and found one post which states that loss of an artillery crew (Crew Kill Post) is a 100 point event.

My question is whether there is a table somewhere which describes the point losses associated with infantry, cavalry, officers and artillery crews. Is there a point loss associated with capture or destruction of artillery pieces alone? Are these values common across all games in the series?

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Lieutenant Walter A. Dortch
AotP/V/2/5


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 Post subject: Re: Victory Points
PostPosted: Sun Nov 12, 2017 10:40 am 
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Lt. Dortch,

The victory points per unit...inf., arty, cav., supply and leaders is listed in the .pdt file of each scenario. The details should be in the scenario editing manual. Also, if you open the scenario you are play in the editor it will show you the victory points awarded for each casualty. Note, if you play the option to capture and reuse the artillery the victory points awarded are different base on holding the enemy guns. I believe you only get half of the points if to capture the guns but then leave them or leave them spiked.

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BG. Derek Hampel
Cmdr. Second Div., XV Corps
Army of the Tennessee


Last edited by D. Hampel on Sun Nov 12, 2017 10:42 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Victory Points
PostPosted: Sun Nov 12, 2017 10:41 am 
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Welcome to the club!

Artillery loses are not caused by crew loses, rather they are determined by both the rules options being used and the individual game being played.

1) If using the "Artillery Capture," you gain points by capturing the artillery, but if you move off all you units, they become abandoned and the points gained are lost. But can easily be regained if recaptured. A simply leader, or supply wagon is enough to maintain the VPs. More info is in the manual

2) Look at "Spiked" rules

3) Different scenarios and designer have assigned different point values. These will vary. In Gettysburg, Doug assigned them a value of 60 per gun lost. So a battery of 4 would be worth 240 points. However, in "most" other games, the initial value is 30 points per gun.

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Brig. Gen. Rich Walker
AotW I/3/4
Scenario Designer:
Franklin, Shiloh, Chickamauga, Antietam, Atlanta, Chancellorsville, Petersburg


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 Post subject: Re: Victory Points
PostPosted: Sun Nov 12, 2017 10:45 am 
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D. Hampel wrote:
Lt. Dortch,

The victory points per unit...inf., arty, cav., supply and leaders is listed in the .pdt file of each scenario. The details should be in the scenario editing manual. Also, if you open the scenario you are play in the editor it will show you the victory points awarded for each casualty. Note, if you play the option to capture and reuse the artillery the victory points awarded are different base on holding the enemy guns. I believe you only get half of the points if to capture the guns but then leave them or leave them spiked.

Reply was one minute apart. LOL!

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Brig. Gen. Rich Walker
AotW I/3/4
Scenario Designer:
Franklin, Shiloh, Chickamauga, Antietam, Atlanta, Chancellorsville, Petersburg


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 Post subject: Re: Victory Points
PostPosted: Sun Nov 12, 2017 2:39 pm 
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Thanks to you both! Found the info in the editor as you suggested. Interesting this info is not displayed in the Parameter info you can access from the game.

And while I have you, are these the values used if there are exit hexes in a scenario? Meaning if I exit a 2 gun battery I get 30 or 60 points per gun?

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Lieutenant Walter A. Dortch
AotP/V/2/5


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 Post subject: Re: Victory Points
PostPosted: Mon Nov 13, 2017 12:18 am 
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Walt Dortch wrote:
Thanks to you both! Found the info in the editor as you suggested. Interesting this info is not displayed in the Parameter info you can access from the game.

And while I have you, are these the values used if there are exit hexes in a scenario? Meaning if I exit a 2 gun battery I get 30 or 60 points per gun?


Yes, that is correct.

And parameter data is universal data, VP assignments are potentially individual to each scenario.

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Brig. Gen. Rich Walker
AotW I/3/4
Scenario Designer:
Franklin, Shiloh, Chickamauga, Antietam, Atlanta, Chancellorsville, Petersburg


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 Post subject: Re: Victory Points
PostPosted: Wed Nov 15, 2017 1:05 am 
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None of the series have such a fast switch in victory levels like the ACW series. The main thing in this series is to NOT lose units. Lose the VPs but avoid losing your men.

Always try and gang up on groups of units. Its one of the easier ways of winning. Ignore the objectives as much as possible early on while looking to pick off lone cavalry units. Watch the victory level swing wildly over to your side when you do that.

Randy Brooks, one of my trainers in the series, taught me that its best to fire than melee. In firing you can obviously run low in ammo but in meleeing your guys suffer a lot of fatigue. Randy and I and one other Union member played in a memorable MP game. I think it was Roger H. Randy taught me that trick and I have never forgotten it. Whenever I lose its because I failed to heed Randy's advice of long ago.

Know the fire ranges too. Know what armament your opponent has and get to the range that best favors your troops weapons. Get to know the artillery ranges and the values for each range group. If that Napoleon you are facing is a killer at 6 hexes and your Rifled cannon is better at 7 hexes then pull your guns back.

Little tricks like that is what helps to win these games. That and keeping your men in command range and the brigade and div. leaders in command range of their upper echelon leaders.

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Colonel Bill Peters
7th Brig, Cav Div
I Corps, AoP, USA
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 Post subject: Re: Victory Points
PostPosted: Wed Nov 15, 2017 4:55 pm 
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William Peters wrote:
None of the series have such a fast switch in victory levels like the ACW series. The main thing in this series is to NOT lose units. Lose the VPs but avoid losing your men.

Always try and gang up on groups of units. Its one of the easier ways of winning. Ignore the objectives as much as possible early on while looking to pick off lone cavalry units. Watch the victory level swing wildly over to your side when you do that.

Randy Brooks, one of my trainers in the series, taught me that its best to fire than melee. In firing you can obviously run low in ammo but in meleeing your guys suffer a lot of fatigue. Randy and I and one other Union member played in a memorable MP game. I think it was Roger H. Randy taught me that trick and I have never forgotten it. Whenever I lose its because I failed to heed Randy's advice of long ago.

Know the fire ranges too. Know what armament your opponent has and get to the range that best favors your troops weapons. Get to know the artillery ranges and the values for each range group. If that Napoleon you are facing is a killer at 6 hexes and your Rifled cannon is better at 7 hexes then pull your guns back.

Little tricks like that is what helps to win these games. That and keeping your men in command range and the brigade and div. leaders in command range of their upper echelon leaders.


Thanks Bill very much.

Have learned some of these lessons the hard way already! Great fun, these games.

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Lieutenant Walter A. Dortch
AotP/V/2/5


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 Post subject: Re: Victory Points
PostPosted: Thu Nov 16, 2017 2:53 pm 
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Rule of thumb: Melee is decisive, fire is attrition.
Melee does fatigue your unit but it decisively fatigues the loser. Usually losing a melee puts a unit out of effective combat while doing little damage to the winner.

The key to melee is never do it unless you are going to win.
Another rule of thumb: A melee of 2:1 is actually an even odds battle. So never melee at 2:1 or less. Preferred odds are at least 3:1 with some other favorable modifiers thrown in like leader, not firing, quality, etc. Aim for at 90% or better chance of winning. Keep you command in range of leaders and they will probably return to fully ordered for the next turn. The enemy will have badly fatigued units with heavy losses as well as disrupted and probably routed as well.

In Turn type games, it is the preferred method of combat for the attacker. Almost no down side.
In Phased play, the defender does have quite a bit of fire power so it isn't quite as good.

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General Kennon Whitehead
Chatham Grays
AoT II/1/3 (CSA)


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 Post subject: Re: Victory Points
PostPosted: Thu Nov 16, 2017 3:49 pm 
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General Whitehead is very right here and for the new members it can't be said often enough, what tactics work will depend a lot on the optional rules you choses to use in the game.

Personally I play only with phases, that means defensive fire if done by the player, what puts the advantage with the defender were it should be. But the tactic of doing attacks with fire only won't work here as the defender is able to concentrate fire on your units and may disorder them. But disordered units bring only half fire what means unless you outnumber the defender at least 2 to 1 or better more you will likely lose the fire fight.

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Brigadier General Christian Hecht
Corps Commander V Corps, Army of the Potomac
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 Post subject: Re: Victory Points
PostPosted: Fri Nov 17, 2017 5:41 pm 
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KWhitehead wrote:
Rule of thumb: Melee is decisive, fire is attrition.
Melee does fatigue your unit but it decisively fatigues the loser. Usually losing a melee puts a unit out of effective combat while doing little damage to the winner.

The key to melee is never do it unless you are going to win.
Another rule of thumb: A melee of 2:1 is actually an even odds battle. So never melee at 2:1 or less. Preferred odds are at least 3:1 with some other favorable modifiers thrown in like leader, not firing, quality, etc. Aim for at 90% or better chance of winning. Keep you command in range of leaders and they will probably return to fully ordered for the next turn. The enemy will have badly fatigued units with heavy losses as well as disrupted and probably routed as well.

In Turn type games, it is the preferred method of combat for the attacker. Almost no down side.
In Phased play, the defender does have quite a bit of fire power so it isn't quite as good.


Hello

REALLY appreciate this info. Had been wondering if there were rules of thumb for combat odds in melee and LO, here they are.

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Lieutenant Walter A. Dortch
AotP/V/2/5


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