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 Post subject: New Optional Rule?
PostPosted: Wed Oct 14, 2020 9:06 pm 
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Would an Optional Rule written something like...

Movement Fatigue Modifier
Units moving in column incur a 10 point fatigue increase per turn. Units moving in line formation incur a 15 point fatigue increase per turn.

... interest anyone?

I just threw those numbers out there but you get the idea. With 27 Optional Rules you would think we would have one dealing with this by now. Especially since the Night Movement Penalty was added a over a decade ago (I think).

Is it just me who thinks troops should get fatigued from marching? The rule couldn't be overly complicated or else the variables would be too great to explain or understand (think opportunity fire). A flat fatigue increase per movement by a unit seems a simple enough idea.

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 Post subject: Re: New Optional Rule?
PostPosted: Wed Oct 14, 2020 11:58 pm 
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This proposal seems harsh to me.

My view would be that troops were rarely fatigued by walking around the battlefield (although getting to the battlefield was a different matter). Most fatigue suffered in battlefield movements would be over-ridden by adrenaline. [Currently, routed units in the game seem to have little trouble moving off at maximum speed, even when they have reached high levels of fatigue.] Going up steep hills or through difficult terrain would fatigue troops more easily but this is mostly taken into account through movement penalties. Current casualty and night fatigue modifiers seem sufficient to me.

I am unaware of any fatigue penalty for units entrenching/constructing breastworks which would seem to me to be a more arduous task than manoeuvres around the battlefield. I would also be concerned that a fatigue penalty on movement would favour the defender (who is digging in without penalty) and discourage the attacker from bold moves merely because his units had to move more than his enemy.

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 Post subject: Re: New Optional Rule?
PostPosted: Thu Oct 15, 2020 12:20 am 
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First I would like to understand what the column movement along road really depicts in-game, I mean how fast are they compared to reality and how much would it have fatigued real soldiers?

I would surely do not mind to give them fatigue if they conduct a so called forced march, but should normal marching really add fatigue?

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 Post subject: Re: New Optional Rule?
PostPosted: Thu Oct 15, 2020 7:14 am 
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I think it is the classic "historical reality vs. gaming mechanics" discussion. I think all soldiers are fatigued from marching of any sort (consider high heat, humidity, heavy backpacks, or rainy/snowy weather). Commanders tried to rest their men for 10 minutes an hour if possible otherwise it became a forced march.

In game the soldiers march 4500 feet per turn. Each hex is 125 yards (if I recall correctly) and they can move 12 hexes. So they are marching about 2.5 miles per hour.

The game doesn't have the capability to have a unit "bleed stragglers" while marching. Increasing the fatigue seems to be the only way to disincentivize a player from marching continually (the same as the game already does at night). Does it favor the defender? Sure. While Jackson's Corps outflanked the Federal army at Chancellorsville the XI Corps rested. But did that single factor mean the defenders won? Obviously not. But Jackson's men were fatigued and had lost quite a few stragglers during the movement. In our games, as currently played, Jackson arrives in perfect condition with zero fatigue and in good order.

Again - historical reality vs. gaming. Sometimes the gaming mechanics don't offer a good solution for historical issues and so we just play "as is." Like with Artillery Capture or Rout Limiting. Some players prefer to have both turned off, others like them on, at least Optional Rules allow us to mix it up some and try out new ideas.

Lt. Swanson is right that moving up higher elevations would be more likely to cause fatigue. If the game could differentiate between elevations and take that into account that would be great. The same with crossing streams or other geographical obstructions. There are movement penalties for these actions but no fatigue losses. A movement penalty works well because it does take longer to climb a hill than it does to walk across a field. But as we ever-aging gentlemen know - we are winded when we get to the top of the hill! Try doing that with just the bare minimum of Civil War necessities like a 10 pound rifle, 60 rounds of ammo, a bayonet, rations and a canteen. Could those effects be accounted for through a minor increase in fatigue?

At 10 points a turn it would be small enough not to matter until your men had been marching for 3 or more hours non-stop. Even then a single turn of rest every hour would likely recover most fatigue loss. Only a player who moved non-stop all day would really feel the crunch. But shouldn't they?

From the Yankee perspective don't you find it odd AP Hill's Division arrives at Antietam in perfect order with no fatigue, despite just marching 17 miles?

Just me thinking out loud to get a discussion going :D

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 Post subject: Re: New Optional Rule?
PostPosted: Thu Oct 15, 2020 9:30 am 
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In the old SSI Civil War games you got random 1 fatigue whenever you moved one square. This makes a bit more sense than charging full fatigue cost for any movement. You could also get up to five extra movement points by hitting the 'x' key up to five times, at a cost of a fatigue a point. This represented forced marching. You could always recover fatigue by resting. I think in Civil War battles troops spent a lot more time resting than fighting, whether on offense or defense.

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 Post subject: Re: New Optional Rule?
PostPosted: Sat Oct 17, 2020 7:07 pm 
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BG Meadows. Sir, <salute>

Larry Mills presented a similar idea a couple months back regarding force marching.

Here is the prior post/discussion...
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=21522

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 Post subject: Re: New Optional Rule?
PostPosted: Fri Oct 23, 2020 1:20 pm 
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Gen. Meadows, Suh!

If you're looking for a discussion, I'm sure I can find a couple of cents...

It's my understanding that fatigue, in the game sense, has more to do with mental (or, battle) fatigue than actual physical tiredness. Still, the argument can be made that physical fatigue can be a contributing factor to an infantryman saying, "$@%! it!", I'm done". That said, I don't believe I'd have any issue with a small amount of fatigue being added for movement. I even think it might add a tiny bit of realism - a player thoughtfully watching over unit fatigue might rest his newly arriving brigades a turn or two before pushing them into the attack. I've never been in combat (nor do I have any particular wish to find myself in that situation :shock: ), but I have been in the military, so I know that there is ample time to rest. I certainly did my share of "hurry up and wait". I think this might work better with something like 5 points per turn in column, 10 points in mline, and an additional 5 if the turn includes an elevation gain. Thoughts?

Now, I shall apologize in advance, suh, for taking your post somewhat off topic

Being new to the game and to the club, one of the things I've been doing has been searching the boards for strategies, tactics and tips. And, my keyword searches have turned up many an interesting topic. Rather than resurrect a post that's nearly 7 years old, and because it also deals with (column) movement, I thought I'd append my thoughts here. The post was entitled "Gamey Tactics' and can be viewed here: http://wargame.ch/board/acwgc/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=19226&p=101311&hilit=cavalry+%26+Tactics#p101311

Within this thread is a great deal of discussion about melee from column formation. I've read many a thread on this topic in my short time in the club and I still don't have a firm opinion on its use. I have meleed from column, but it just didn't feel quite right. I know the tactic was used during the war, but my, admittedly short, research has shown that melee from column was a more unwieldy Column of Companies or Column of Divisions, not the March Column that I believe provides the Road Movement benefits of column formation in the game.

I suspect at this point that few, if any, changes will be made to the game, But, if I had one request for an optional rule, it would be to add one for attack column. In it's simplest form, it would prevent melee from column by any unit which used road movement points. In a column with a frontage of 40 men or more, I think it's hardly possible that the unit would qualify for the additional benefits of road movement.

How could this be programmed without another formation? I've not a clue. A "Pop-Up" would necessitate a lot of extra clicking, but perhaps this could be mitigated somewhat by using something along the lines of the ALT key as it's now used for organizational movement. Maybe it doesn't need another key. The pop-up could ask something like "Use March Column Movement?". Once answered "Yes", the unit would be prohibited from melee for that turn.

I guess I'm just thinking out loud now, but I've seen enough discussions on this topic to know that that there are many proponents for and against melee from column. I also have read that the game was designed with this tactic in mind. Again, from my perspective, the biggest strike against the tactic, is the increased movement which just doesn't feel quite right. A separate section could be added to the PDT to govern movement by attack columns.

As I stated above, my readings have told me that code changes to the game are unlikely going forward. I've also read that some players use a house rule that prohibits melee from column. What about one that requires players to not use road movement? Or, better, using the "Line Infantry table of the PDT. The downside is that this requires hex counting which I suspect some might be loathe to do.

Anyhow, General, you asked for a discussion... next time I see you in the bar, Suh, I'll give you two more cents.

<Salute>

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