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ALL MEMBERS MAY VOTE FOR THE RULE CHANGES. YES or NO
Poll ended at Mon Dec 28, 2020 5:27 pm
yes 68%  68%  [ 25 ]
no 32%  32%  [ 12 ]
Total votes : 37
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 18, 2020 4:08 pm 
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L. Newell wrote:
I have read the old rule and the proposed change and find nothing earth shattering with the change except maybe to clarify the language and close a possible loophole. and there is a ongoing discussion right now. Why stop now? You want the change you vote Yes if you don't vote No very simple. I see nothing in this rule change that will affect any member who is follow the club rules.


I agree with everything you just wrote. In fact, in twenty-plus years of club membership I can only recall one member who got the boot.

I can recall very few proposed rule changes over the years, and this is the first time that I know of that the procedure has been questioned.

Nevertheless, it might be wise in the future to have the discussion before the vote.

DISCLAIMER: At my age there is an awful lot I no longer remember.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 18, 2020 6:00 pm 
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9.1 Revisions to these rules must first be approved by a simple majority of the Cabinet, then by a simple majority of club members voting. Club-wide votes are to be organized by the Cabinet, but must allow at least two weeks for votes to be received. The exceptions to this rule will be the inclusion of new games, as per 1.1, above, as amended on August 13, 2008 and changes for spelling or grammatical errors.

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 19, 2020 9:17 am 
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So who is actually on the Cabinet since the Cabinet page is not updated?

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 19, 2020 10:55 am 
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J. Rossbach wrote:
So who is actually on the Cabinet since the Cabinet page is not updated?

Major Rossbach

Good Day sir.

I found the following information on the ACWGC pages and I think it reflects up to date information. Anyone please correct as needed.
There are seven members of the Cabinet. One Civilian position and One Military position are at the moment ready to be addressed and the Club President election is in progress.

CLUB CABINET

****CIVILIAN BRANCH****
President: Ernie Sands, Term: September 19, 2015 (Re-Elected) - November 1, 2020 (2nd Term End Date) (ELECTION IN PROGRESS)
CSA Cabinet Secretary: John Dragan, Term: August 26, 2015 (Interim) - October 27, 2018 (Re-Elected) - October 22, 2020 (2nd Term End Date) (POSITION NEEDS TO BE FILLED)
CSA Cabinet Secretary: Cameron McOmish, Term: October 29, 2016 ( Interim) - October 13, 2018 (Elected) - October 12, 2020 (1st Term End Date) (WAS RE-ELECTED TO 2022)
USA Cabinet Secretary: Scott Eichelberger, Term: June 9, 2020 (Elected) - June 8, 2022 (1st Term End Date)
USA Cabinet Secretary: Jim Boling, Term: July 13, 2020 (Elected) - July 12, 2022 (1st Term End Date)
****MILITARY BRANCH****
CSA - CoA of all Confederate Forces: General Scott Ludwig
Term: Dec. 15, 2014 (Re-Elected) - October 2, 2020 (2nd Term End Date) (ELECTION NEEDED)
USA - CoA of all Union Forces: Lieutenant General Michael Dowling
Term: September 25, 2019 (Elected) - September 24, 2021 (1st Term End Date)

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 19, 2020 2:12 pm 
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My other concern about the proposed rule change (2.6.5.1) is the reason for expulsion in the first place. As expulsion can be "for actions and/or speech deemed by the Cabinet to have been detrimental or abusive to any other member of the club or disruptive to the good order and functioning of the club" it would seem that they are sins that are very much 'in the eye of the beholder' rather than for specific breaches of club rules that may warrant expulsion in the first place.

I can find nothing in the Club Rules that states the sort of behaviour that could lead to expulsion and therefore the new rule could be used to permanently exclude someone from full participation in the ACWGC in that "Any previously expelled member reinstated by the Cabinet is ineligible to hold any elected position within the club and may not hold a command above Corps level". As the ruling is essentially at the whim of the Cabinet this means there is potential for abuses of such power. I would be pleased to see some members treated harshly with a permanent expulsion [e.g. cheaters, strangely this does not even seem to be mentioned in the Club Rules] whereas with others a one year absence would be more than sufficient punishment.

Let the punishment fit the crime. If onerous penalties are to be codified then there is a need to be specific about what actions would lead to such a thing.

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 19, 2020 2:50 pm 
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Quaama wrote:
My other concern about the proposed rule change (2.6.5.1) is the reason for expulsion in the first place. As expulsion can be "for actions and/or speech deemed by the Cabinet to have been detrimental or abusive to any other member of the club or disruptive to the good order and functioning of the club" it would seem that they are sins that are very much 'in the eye of the beholder' rather than for specific breaches of club rules that may warrant expulsion in the first place.


The way I have read the old rule and the proposed changes and it does not address the reasons for expulsion just the reinstatement. 2.6.4 addresses Expulsion and as of now the cabinet has not put forward a proposed change of that rule.

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 19, 2020 3:24 pm 
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L. Newell wrote:
Quaama wrote:
My other concern about the proposed rule change (2.6.5.1) is the reason for expulsion in the first place. As expulsion can be "for actions and/or speech deemed by the Cabinet to have been detrimental or abusive to any other member of the club or disruptive to the good order and functioning of the club" it would seem that they are sins that are very much 'in the eye of the beholder' rather than for specific breaches of club rules that may warrant expulsion in the first place.


The way I have read the old rule and the proposed changes and it does not address the reasons for expulsion just the reinstatement. 2.6.4 addresses Expulsion and as of now the cabinet has not put forward a proposed change of that rule.


Yes, I was quoting from Rule 2.6.4. My point is that the rule for expulsion is non-specific (in the eye of the beholder) yet the proposed new rule is specific regarding the punishment.

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 19, 2020 5:23 pm 
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My eyes may let me down here but where is a specific punishment is in the new/changed rules?

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 19, 2020 6:29 pm 
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I am still looking for the part of the rules that allows Cabinet Members and the President to extend their own terms of office without notice to the Club and without any given reason or explanation. Now you rush to update the Cabinet's Terms? Seems to me that would fall under the category of actions "disruptive to the good order and functioning of the club."

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 19, 2020 6:41 pm 
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C. Hecht wrote:
My eyes may let me down here but where is a specific punishment is in the new/changed rules?


The bolded portions hereunder are new and specific.

2.6.5.1 Members who were expelled from the club may ask to be reinstated by the cabinet after one year. They must receive a unanimous cabinet vote to be reinstated. A member who is reinstated would return at the rank of Second/Field Lieutenant and given 15 points. Any previously expelled member reinstated by the Cabinet is ineligible to hold any elected position within the club and may not hold a command above Corps level. The cabinet will consider exceptions for Academy or War College Commandant and Chief of Staff Positions on a case-by-case basis. After one calendar year, the reinstated member may petition the cabinet to have all command and elective restrictions removed. A unanimous vote of the cabinet is required to remove all restrictions. This ruling is retroactive to 01 MAY 1997.

My reading of the current rule is that an expelled member once reinstated would have no restrictions in holding an elected position and nor would they have any command restrictions.

The new rule would impose restrictions and they would be in place for a minimum of one year. There would be no guarantee that those restrictions would ever be lifted as the need for an unanimous cabinet vote to remove restrictions could be frustrated by one cabinet member.
The rule being retroactive would mean that any current member who had been reinstated under the old rule would immediately be subject to the restrictions imposed by 2.6.5.1 and would need to petition the cabinet to have the restrictions removed even though they could have been holding high command positions or elected positions in the meantime.

People expelled for "actions and/or speech deemed by the Cabinet to have been detrimental or abusive to any other member of the club or disruptive to the good order and functioning of the club" would cover quite a range in severity of their actions. Words such as 'detrimental', 'abusive' and 'disruptive' are things, as I said before, that are very much "in the eye of the beholder".
I would view some things (such as cheating) as deserving of harsh punishment [and quite frankly would rather such people never return] whereas as others (being disruptive ...) as being less severe and not deserving of that person having a possibly permanent stain on their character and full membership of the ACWGC.

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 19, 2020 8:21 pm 
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Tex McSwain wrote:
I am still looking for the part of the rules that allows Cabinet Members and the President to extend their own terms of office without notice to the Club and without any given reason or explanation. Now you rush to update the Cabinet's Terms? Seems to me that would fall under the category of actions "disruptive to the good order and functioning of the club."

For this you should open a new thread. Election are not held parallel and are done by only a few people, that this takes time now more then ever should be obviously.
Besides this, the cabinet is surely not "extending" their terms because they want to. Or would you prefer that they just drop the mic and leave the others only handling cabinet stuff?


Quaama wrote:
The bolded portions hereunder are new and specific.

2.6.5.1 Members who were expelled from the club may ask to be reinstated by the cabinet after one year. They must receive a unanimous cabinet vote to be reinstated. A member who is reinstated would return at the rank of Second/Field Lieutenant and given 15 points. Any previously expelled member reinstated by the Cabinet is ineligible to hold any elected position within the club and may not hold a command above Corps level. The cabinet will consider exceptions for Academy or War College Commandant and Chief of Staff Positions on a case-by-case basis. After one calendar year, the reinstated member may petition the cabinet to have all command and elective restrictions removed. A unanimous vote of the cabinet is required to remove all restrictions. This ruling is retroactive to 01 MAY 1997.

Ok the probation is indeed new, but the current 2.6.5 already notes the need for a unanimous Cabinet vote to be reinstated. The probation will work here as a 2 step method that may very well allow the cabinet to reinstate someone, but just not yet let them fool with high ranking command duties. The current one step method will surely force the cabinet to decline applications to be reinstated because they may fears once that person is back he can cause trouble. All in all the new ruling is an improvement for expelled members, not something that makes it harder to come back.

Besides this, that the ruling is retroactive will hit members that were expelled, that it would hit those that already have been reinstated is a very "creative" way of interpreting the new rules, I don't see that at all.

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 19, 2020 8:55 pm 
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C. Hecht wrote:
Tex McSwain wrote:
I am still looking for the part of the rules that allows Cabinet Members and the President to extend their own terms of office without notice to the Club and without any given reason or explanation. Now you rush to update the Cabinet's Terms? Seems to me that would fall under the category of actions "disruptive to the good order and functioning of the club."

For this you should open a new thread. Election are not held parallel and are done by only a few people, that this takes time now more then ever should be obviously.
Besides this, the cabinet is surely not "extending" their terms because they want to. Or would you prefer that they just drop the mic and leave the others only handling cabinet stuff?


Elections are not held parallel? Apparently voting on a proposal and a Presidential Election are. So why not multiple Cabinet elections at once?

I'd prefer they serve the terms they were given at the start. That's the way elective offices work. Google January 20.

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 19, 2020 9:31 pm 
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And then the next member shows up complaining that the cabinet isn't full and by that not in the positions to do anything as it isn't representing the whole membership.
Especially the CSA side should be glad that members serve beyond some set date to ensure a flawless transition of power, the alternative to this is that we get nothing done at all.

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 19, 2020 9:52 pm 
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C. Hecht wrote:
And then the next member shows up complaining that the cabinet isn't full and by that not in the positions to do anything as it isn't representing the whole membership.
Especially the CSA side should be glad that members serve beyond some set date to ensure a flawless transition of power, the alternative to this is that we get nothing done at all.


If the Cabinet isn't full due to a lack of volunteers than the Cabinet and Club need to address much deeper problems than whether or not a hypothetically reinstated member can or cannot be a Corps commander after being reinstated to the Club.

Good thing we have a new President coming in - both candidates seem to be committed to forward movement and transparency.

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 19, 2020 10:45 pm 
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I see the Cabinet page has been updated!

Some terms have been extended! Who did that? I didn't see a vote on those. Does the Cabinet have the power to just extend the terms. This whole thing, elections and the way things are being run, seems rather suspect!

But hey, we are here to have fun! I shouldn't even worry about these little matters since I can't even have my rank, ribbons or awards updated on the AOP web page.

Seems like no one gives a didly squat!

Happy Holidays

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