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PostPosted: Sun Jan 10, 2021 4:18 pm 
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I was on Reddit looking for some info on another John Tiller series (Panzer Campaigns) when I came across a post stating that a unit could exit on ANY Exit VP Location and secure VP's. This applies to Exit VL's marked for the other side. Maybe this is common knowledge, but I had not come across this yet:

r/johntillersoftware

I opened the 1st Manassas battle (003 1BR_Bull Run V.1) in the Campaign Sharpsburg game and checked this out. In the scenario, there are 2 Union VL's and 2 Confederate VL's. The Union locations are hexes (0, 55) and (83, 109). The VL's for the Good Guys are at (131, 0) and (159, 22). This scenario uses variable entry, so units may enter in a different location each game. Playing both sides manually, without FOW, I entered the union forces for Turn 1.

Keyes and Schenk's Brigades of Tyler's Division happened to enter on the CSA Victory Hex (159, 22). When placed on the map, the CSA flag switched to the USA flag. I exited ALL units for these brigades. The Victory Dialog shows this:

Image

I advanced the turn and placed the initial CSA units on the map. Ewell's Brigade entered within reach of the Union VL at (83, 109). The brigade marched to this hex and exited. Again, the flag switched and VP's were awarded to the CSA. Jackson's Brigade arrived atop the Union VL at (0, 55) and received VP's for exiting here. By the time I advanced the first turn, the Union Major Victory had been reversed, the Victory Dialog now showing a massive Union defeat:

Image

My question is, obviously, is this a known bug? It seems to me that, in a scenario with Exit VL's, the side with the larger force should generally not be guaranteed a victory simply by exiting his troops at the nearest Exit hex. Another question, which I've not yet had time to check, is what happens to all those points if the other side captures the hex? Do they transfer to the last side to occupy the hex? Second question... does this issue exist just this game, or is this the case in all of the JTS ACW games?

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Army of Northern Virginia


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 10, 2021 5:24 pm 
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Why there is a change in the Victory Points, I do not know although I'm sure that many far more knowledgeable about the game will have the answer for you.

I think the ACWGC rule quoted below should prevent, as you say, "the side with the larger force should generally not be guaranteed a victory simply by exiting his troops at the nearest Exit hex".
ACWGC Rule
5.1.4
Withdrawal of all (or a substantial portion of) forces from the battlefield, unless specified in the scenario as a victory condition, will cost the withdrawing player a 2-step reduction in the level of victory. Removal from the map of individual units, routed behind enemy lines by the game engine, is allowed. (This rule is waived in the case of campaign scenarios.)

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 10, 2021 7:16 pm 
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Quaama wrote:
Why there is a change in the Victory Points, I do not know although I'm sure that many far more knowledgeable about the game will have the answer for you.

I think the ACWGC rule quoted below should prevent, as you say, "the side with the larger force should generally not be guaranteed a victory simply by exiting his troops at the nearest Exit hex".
ACWGC Rule
5.1.4
Withdrawal of all (or a substantial portion of) forces from the battlefield, unless specified in the scenario as a victory condition, will cost the withdrawing player a 2-step reduction in the level of victory. Removal from the map of individual units, routed behind enemy lines by the game engine, is allowed. (This rule is waived in the case of campaign scenarios.)


These units are exiting at EXIT Victory Locations. Once a unit sets foot on one of these hexes, the Flag switches to the "owning" side. This is obviously a bug in that a side should only receive points for exiting at an Exit VL that was shown for their side at the beginning of the scenario. As it stands, any force can exit the battlefield at an EXIT Hex - I don't see a rule that prohibits units from exiting at Exit VL's. In this scenario, exiting forces is a part of the victory conditions.

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Lt. Colonel Mike Terhune
New River Greys
II/4/ 4
Army of Northern Virginia


"Up, men, to your posts! Don't forget today that you are from old Virginia

MG George E. Pickett, July 3, 1863
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 10, 2021 9:42 pm 
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I am not sure that I have the answer for you but perhaps I can offer something that is connected to your observations.

Up in the upper right of the forum page is a Search link. I used "exit hex victory points" to do a search. It returned some interesting results. I fear I must leave it to you to decide if there is a connection between your situation and the search result information that came available.

Good luck in your search for answers.

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 10, 2021 10:06 pm 
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Mike Terhune wrote:
Quaama wrote:
Why there is a change in the Victory Points, I do not know although I'm sure that many far more knowledgeable about the game will have the answer for you.

I think the ACWGC rule quoted below should prevent, as you say, "the side with the larger force should generally not be guaranteed a victory simply by exiting his troops at the nearest Exit hex".
ACWGC Rule
5.1.4
Withdrawal of all (or a substantial portion of) forces from the battlefield, unless specified in the scenario as a victory condition, will cost the withdrawing player a 2-step reduction in the level of victory. Removal from the map of individual units, routed behind enemy lines by the game engine, is allowed. (This rule is waived in the case of campaign scenarios.)


These units are exiting at EXIT Victory Locations. Once a unit sets foot on one of these hexes, the Flag switches to the "owning" side. This is obviously a bug in that a side should only receive points for exiting at an Exit VL that was shown for their side at the beginning of the scenario. As it stands, any force can exit the battlefield at an EXIT Hex - I don't see a rule that prohibits units from exiting at Exit VL's. In this scenario, exiting forces is a part of the victory conditions.


I had a look at the scenario and in view of what you have said I think that the larger of the two sides in this scenario will always win the scenario. The problem is when the 'hex flag' changes it then becomes an 'exit hex' for that side so you simply exit your units via hexes that were probably never intended to be used as exit hexes for the side now exiting from them.
Solution 1: When playing this scenario introduce a house rule that prohibits exit for victory points at any hex other than those intended as such [in the case of the CSA (131, 0) and (159, 22) and the USA (0, 55) and (83, 109)].
Solution 2: Contact John Tiller and see if they can fix it so the flags do not change during the scenario (possibly a problem as flag changes when a unit occupies a hex flying the enemy flag may be deeply embedded into the programming).

Like you I would also be interested to know if other scenarios have this issue.

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7th Brigade, 2nd Division
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Army of Northern Virginia


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 11, 2021 8:33 am 
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Quaama wrote:
Solution 2: Contact John Tiller... (possibly a problem as flag changes when a unit occupies a hex flying the enemy flag may be deeply embedded into the programming).


Maybe, but I've been playing many other John Tiller games (PzC, MC, PzB, CS) for years and have never seen this happen. Just to be sure, I ran a quick test in a Fulda Gap (Modern Campaigns) scenario that I knew had Exit VL's for each side (74_02 First Encounter, at Bad Hersfeld). US units that exit at the US location received VP's. US units exiting at the Soviet location did not, and the "hammer & sickle" did not flip. It was the same for the Russian units that exited at the US location.

Of course, it's a different game, and the most extensive "code" I've ever written was for an HP-48GX calculator :mrgreen:


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 12, 2021 11:26 am 
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Mike Terhune wrote:

My question is, obviously, is this a known bug?

Um, now it is.

And now fixed, available in future updates.

Sorry for the trouble.

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Panzer Battles Lead Programmer, http://johntillersoftware.com/PanzerBattles.html
Campaign Series Lead Programmer, http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tt.asp?forumid=1515


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 12, 2021 1:10 pm 
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Wow! Now that is service with a smile. Thanks, Berto.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 12, 2021 1:50 pm 
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Great work Berto! Many thanks!

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 12, 2021 8:11 pm 
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Berto <salute>

I think you are well known to many of the long standing members to the Club but not to me (joined 2017) and I expect most others who have joined in the last couple of years.

Please explain yourself sir, and why you seem to have acquired this very high level of service attitude?

With very best regards,

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 12, 2021 10:25 pm 
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Berto wrote:
Sorry for the trouble.


No trouble at alll, at least on my part. I just happened to see a post that mentioned it. I thought this forum might be the place that folks more familiar with the game would see it. I've also seen a post or two from Berto and thought he would be the one to fix it.

Thank you, Sir!
<Salute>

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Lt. Colonel Mike Terhune
New River Greys
II/4/ 4
Army of Northern Virginia


"Up, men, to your posts! Don't forget today that you are from old Virginia

MG George E. Pickett, July 3, 1863
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 17, 2021 8:52 am 
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Walt Dortch wrote:
Berto <salute>

I think you are well known to many of the long standing members to the Club but not to me (joined 2017) and I expect most others who have joined in the last couple of years.

Please explain yourself sir, and why you seem to have acquired this very high level of service attitude?

Since late 2016, I am the Lead Coder of the Civil War Battles series (see my sig), so it is my responsibility to fix bugs (also to implement any new features).

Note that I do not serve in either the Union or Confederate armies, rather am a member of this Club's so-called "Observer Corps". I don't play PBEM with other Club members (don't have time, etc.), but as Observer Corps member I do have Forum posting rights.

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Civil War Battles Lead Programmer, http://johntillersoftware.com/CivilWarBattles.html
Panzer Battles Lead Programmer, http://johntillersoftware.com/PanzerBattles.html
Campaign Series Lead Programmer, http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tt.asp?forumid=1515


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