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PostPosted: Wed Oct 04, 2023 10:56 am 
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I know that Ewell's brigade spent the battle counter-marching and was not truly engaged in the Battle of First Bull Run but what of Holme's Brigade? From what I gather, Holmes was part of Ewell's command. Did this mean that he and his men also did not take part in the battle?

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 04, 2023 11:12 am 
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I am reading Longacre's book (off and on) about the Battle of First Bull Run. I did a quick Kindle search and Holmes is only mentioned a total of 12 times (excluding end notes) in a 500-something page book.

From what I quickly gathered, Holmes was always off on the extreme right guarding the flank and in reserve. The author included a little more than that but, essentially, he was a non-factor in the events of the battle.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 04, 2023 11:52 am 
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I agree, Holmes did not engage as a brigade during the battle. I checked using The Maps of First Bull Run, Bradley M. Gottfried.

On 18 July Holmes was ordered to march to Manassas Junction. They reached their destination on 20 July, 2nd Tenn., (1st Ark. and Walker's battery) positioning themselves in reserve on the right of the Confederate line near Ewell's Brigade. 5th N.C. was detached and added to Longstreet's Brigade. 13th Miss. detached and added to Early's Brigade.

5th N.C. "was not engaged but was under artillery fire." (https://civilwarintheeast.com/confederate-regiments/north-carolina/5th-north-carolina-infantry-regiment/)

13th Miss. did see action. "The regiment marched across the rear of the battlefield and attacked the Federal right flank near the Chinn house. It regiment [sic] lost 6 men wounded." (https://civilwarintheeast.com/confederate-regiments/mississippi/13th-mississippi-infantry-regiment/)

So, Holmes' Brigade didn't engage but 13th Mississippi of Holmes' brigade did engage. The CSA frequently mixed units of various levels, from early on to the end of the war.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 04, 2023 10:58 pm 
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Nice input, guys. Thanks. Looks like Ewell was busy marching to and fro and could easily be taken out of the game while Holmes never was engaged making his status similar to Miles.

If we want to play a "Historical" scenario then we should be fair to the Union. Removing those two brigades would take the pressure off of the Union left and the other CSA brigades on the right flank would be less inclined to cross the river and go attack that part of the Yank line.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 05, 2023 12:48 am 
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Bill Peters wrote:
Nice input, guys. Thanks. Looks like Ewell was busy marching to and fro and could easily be taken out of the game while Holmes never was engaged making his status similar to Miles.

If we want to play a "Historical" scenario then we should be fair to the Union. Removing those two brigades would take the pressure off of the Union left and the other CSA brigades on the right flank would be less inclined to cross the river and go attack that part of the Yank line.


Most certainly not!
Holmes was ordered to go to Manassas and there he must be.

Once there the bulk his brigade was placed in reserve to the right of the line. They were there to be used if necessary. Two regiments were detached: one to Longstreet's Brigade; the other Early's Brigade.

Orders

1. https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=coo.31924077730186&view=1up&seq=996 2nd from top
General Holmes, Fredericksburg, Va.:
General Beauregard is attacked. Move with three regiments and a light battery to support him. Replace the troops you withdraw by the militia, leaving Colonel Ruggles in command of the district, directing him to hold his troops in readiness for any emergency.
S. COOPER,
Adjutant and Inspector General.
Richmond, July 17,1861.

2. Same link as 1. above, last on page
Special Orders No. 224.
Headquarters of the Forces,
Richmond, Va., July 17,1861.
IV. Brigadier-General Holmes will hold himself in readiness to advance with three regiments and one field battery of his command to the support of Brigadier-General Beauregard upon notice to that effect from the latter general. He will take care to make arrangements for the security of the position which he now holds, and will replace the troops he withdraws therefrom by the militia of the county which has been called into service. He will keep in mind that the movement herein indicated is not to jeopardize the security of the military district under his command, to which, in case of necessity, he will return, and, in any event, after the service upon which he may be detailed shall have been accomplished.

I also like this one https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=coo.31924077730186&view=1up&seq=1002 from President Davis at the end of the battle (bottom of page):
Manassas, July 21,1861.
We have won a glorious though dear-bought victory. Night closed on the enemy in full flight and closely pursued.
JEFFERSON DAVIS.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 06, 2023 8:37 pm 
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Hi Paul - I will add Holmes' brigade in as reinforcements then. Seems the best way to do this. I really hate that one Union division is stuck to the rear while Ewell is free to roam about. If we go by historical then I will leave Ewell out.

For the attachments you mention for Holmes, I will build a special OB for the scenario where those regiments are removed from the brigade and placed under the command of the brigade they were attached to. That way they get the command they need to undisrupt.

"Night closed on the enemy in full flight and closely pursued."

This is a good quote to use to justify adding in 2 more turns. Means that the battle ends at Night and not during Dusk.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 07, 2023 12:26 am 
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That sounds a good way to avoid the 'mixed' status yet still represent where they were in the battle.

I didn't research Miles but Gottfried's book has Holmes arriving on July 20.
"[The march commenced on July 18 with Holmes' Brigade] reaching their destination on the morning of July 20. the Creole Gen. positioned the troops in reserve near Ewell's Brigade on the right of the Confederate line. The 5th North Carolina and 13th Mississippi were also sent forward. The former was added to Longstreet's Brigade, and the latter to Early's."

Wikipedia says on its Holmes webpage:
"Holmes was assigned to P. G. T. Beauregard, for the First Battle of Manassas. Beauregard sent Holmes orders to attack the U.S. left, but by the time the orders reached Holmes, the Confederate army was already victorious."

I can't find any orders from Beauregard to Holmes regarding an attack despite looking through the Official Records. I'd trust Gottfried rather than Wikipedia - always.
I note that Wikipedia says that near the end of the war Holmes was called "Granny" and that when he heard of this Holmes was insulted to the point where he resigned. I didn't know that tidbit. Thank goodness 'Granny Lee' didn't resign early in the war when he was given that nickname [which he is sure to have heard] or the CSA would have been without a great General for the rest of the war.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 07, 2023 1:55 pm 
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And both of those regiments are already part of Longstreet's and Early's brigades. Rich Walker already had "detached" them to the other commands. So no need to build another OB file.

So just to clarify: Holmes' brigade remained on the right and never engaged. Two of his regiments did being part of Longstreet's and Early's forces. Correct? Thus leaving the depleted Holmes brigade off the map is fine. And remember that this map will be a submap of the current battlefield. The eastern part of the map where Holmes, Ewell and Miles were placed will be removed.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 07, 2023 3:37 pm 
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Bill Peters wrote:
And both of those regiments are already part of Longstreet's and Early's brigades. Rich Walker already had "detached" them to the other commands. So no need to build another OB file.

So just to clarify: Holmes' brigade remained on the right and never engaged. Two of his regiments did being part of Longstreet's and Early's forces. Correct? Thus leaving the depleted Holmes brigade off the map is fine. And remember that this map will be a submap of the current battlefield. The eastern part of the map where Holmes, Ewell and Miles were placed will be removed.



I'm unsure what you are trying to achieve by removing the eastern part of the map. I'm guessing you desire to create a scenario that removes the possibility of an eastern assault by either side using the two unnamed roads that run north/south on the map. [Strangely, roads that do not exist today. The eastern stretches of Bull Run today also appear far from being the 'uncrossable river' that they are on the battle map although perhaps increased urbanisation and related factors have lessened its flow between then and now.] This sector was an important concern to the defending Confederates which is why Ewell, Holmes and Jones were placed there. It seems that although Beauregard originally intended an offensive by all three towards Centreville he countermanded his order and had them remain in defensive positions. Refer to reports of Ewell and Jones pp 536-537 (https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=coo.31924077730186&view=1up&seq=553) and Holmes later on p565.

I'm unsure what part of the Union force was delegated to cover the east or whether they considered any defensive or offensive actions there. Miles Division was obviously at Centreville to guard that important junction. A very small division according to the Union norm so perhaps parts were detached to other parts of the army. [Regrettably a search for 'Miles' also brings up 'miles'. It would be a lot of work to discover what he was up to and then uncover what other Union units may have been involved in any actions in the east, so I haven't done it.]

So, if you are looking at a scenario without the eastern sector you probably need to remove:
CSA - Ewell, Holmes and D. R. Jones' Brigades; and
USA - Miles Division and, presumably, some unknown others.

[Note: A Minor Quibble for Designers. When playing scenarios as part of a multi-player game it is frustrating when parts of the map are unnamed, especially roads and forests but also some other prominent landmarks like plateaus and hills. It means you have to give convoluted orders. Orders like: march north along the unnamed road starting at {XXX,XXX}; and advance through the forest at {XXX,XXX} (picking one hex roughly near the middle of it). Anyhow, just a minor quibble for consideration.]

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 14, 2023 11:41 am 
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Bill Peters wrote:
I know that Ewell's brigade spent the battle counter-marching and was not truly engaged in the Battle of First Bull Run but what of Holmes' Brigade? From what I gather, Holmes was part of Ewell's command. Did this mean that he and his men also did not take part in the battle?


Holmes's small brigade wasn't on the battlefield. They were posted to support the Confederate guns along the Potomac by watching for any crossing over the lower Occuquan River, which Bull Creek flows into. They were ordered to the battlefield, but did not make it in time to participate.

Holmes' command was independent of Ewell.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 14, 2023 4:04 pm 
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L.P. Smith wrote:
Bill Peters wrote:
I know that Ewell's brigade spent the battle counter-marching and was not truly engaged in the Battle of First Bull Run but what of Holmes' Brigade? From what I gather, Holmes was part of Ewell's command. Did this mean that he and his men also did not take part in the battle?


Holmes's small brigade wasn't on the battlefield. They were posted to support the Confederate guns along the Potomac by watching for any crossing over the lower Occuquan River, which Bull Creek flows into. They were ordered to the battlefield, but did not make it in time to participate.

Holmes' command was independent of Ewell.



How do you arrive at that conclusion?
Holmes was most definitely at Manassas where he was ordered to be as I showed earlier. He was nowhere near the lower Occuquan or the guns along the Potomac.

On 20th July we have Beauregard ordering (https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=coo.31924077730186&seq=495&q1=):
"Brigadier-General Ewell’s brigade, supported by General Holmes’ brigade, will march via Union Mills Ford and place itself in position of attack upon the enemy. It will be held in readiness either to support the attack upon Centreville or to move in the direction of Sangster’s Cross-Roads, according to circumstances."
We also have Beauregard's report on the battle which says (https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=coo.31924077730186&seq=502&q1=):
"In view of these palpable military conditions, by 4.30 a. m. on the 21st of July I had prepared and dispatched orders directing the whole of the Confederate forces within the lines of Bull Run, including the brigades and regiments of General Johnston, which had arrived at that time, to be held in readiness to march at a moment’s notice. At that hour the following was the disposition of our forces: Ewell’s brigade, constituted as on the 18th of July, remained in position at Union Mills Ford, its left extending along Bull Run in the direction of McLean’s Ford, and supported by Holmes’ brigade."
That is where we find Holmes in the historical Bull Run scenario: in support of Ewell near the ford at Union Mills.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 14, 2023 4:25 pm 
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Copied in detail from - Longacre, Edward G.. The Early Morning of War: Bull Run, 1861 (Campaigns and Commanders Series Book 46) (p. 311 - 312). University of Oklahoma Press. Kindle Edition.

------------

Around five o’clock [on the morning of the battle and at Union Mills with Holmes] Ewell had received Beauregard’s original order to hold his command “in readiness to take the offensive on Centreville at a moment’s notice” as a diversion to relieve anticipated pressure on the Confederate center and perhaps the left as well.

The subsequent order Ewell expected—the notice to get moving—never arrived, but it reached two of his colleagues. Shortly after seven o’clock, with the battle on the Confederate left apparently fully joined, D. R. Jones heard from Beauregard that Ewell had been ordered to advance and that Jones was to expand the offensive by crossing McLean’s Ford “at once.” At once he placed his troops in marching order, informed Longstreet on his left that he was moving out, and sent an aide to confirm Ewell’s advance. No reply being forthcoming, Jones crossed the run and marched his men toward the Virginian’s assumed position on the road from Union Mills.

Jones would claim that he spent two and a half hours awaiting word that Ewell had gone forward. A little after ten o’clock he received instead “a somewhat discretionary order” from Beauregard, the contents of which he did not reveal. To add to the confusion, a few minutes later Colonel Chisolm of the army headquarters staff handed him a positive order to resume his position of early morning. Beauregard had decided that “on account of the difficulties in our front it is thought preferable to countermand the advance of the right wing.”

Ewell never received notice to change his posture from “wait to hear” to “go ahead.” “No orders, no orders,” a subordinate recalled him muttering as he paced back and forth at his field quarters. All the general got was a copy of the 7:00 A.M. dispatch to Jones, relayed by Jones himself. The message indicated that Ewell’s troops had been put in motion and that Jones’s own should follow as soon as the Second Brigade closed up on his right. Before receiving this copy, Ewell, at perhaps 9:30, directed that a rider be sent to army headquarters to clear up the misunderstanding. When the horseman reported for orders, Ewell managed to make a bad situation worse. A bystander noted that he began “slashing away with tongue and finger, delivering his directions with such rapidity and incompleteness that the young man’s thoughts were dancing through his brain in inescapable confusion.” When the would-be courier begged to inform the general that he did not understand, Ewell exploded, angrily dismissed him, and had members of his own staff run the errand.

As soon as he saw the copy of Jones’s attack directive, Ewell—confused by the contradictory orders and stressed by the possibility that the evident miscommunication was somehow his fault—began to throw his brigade across Bull Run. The operation was barely begun when he was met by a courier from Beauregard with an order to return his men to the south side. A bewildered Ewell did as told, but almost as soon as he regained his original position, he received another message from headquarters, this one relayed by Colonel Benjamin F. Terry, a volunteer aide-de-camp to Ewell, “to cross again, proceed up the run, and attack a battery of the enemy upon its flank and rear, regulating my movements upon the brigades of Generals Jones and Longstreet.” Wearily, Ewell again crossed the stream. By a little after three o’clock, his brigade had moved about a mile and a half toward the enemy; at this point the balding brigadier received yet another order to return to the south side. Once there, he should prepare to move to the far left in company with Holmes’s brigade. This latest summons, even more so than the conflicting orders preceding it, made Ewell tremble: “My feelings then were terrible as such an order could only mean that we were defeated and I was to cover the retreat.”

Ewell’s nightmare ended with his brigade, like Holmes’s, failing to reach the embattled flank in time to help defend it. No longer at Union Mills Ford, he was not in a position to support the afternoon operations north of Bull Run by Longstreet and Jones, both of whom had advanced without reference to him. Six hours of marching and countermarching had brought Ewell no commitment to battle, no opportunity to win fame and glory—only grief.

-------------

My own opinion is that Ewell and Holmes, if you are playing the historical game, should probably be fixed at Union Mills to replicate the total confusion involved with their orders. If you are playing a "what-if" game, then you can decide their positioning however you want. But neither unit played any substantial role in the actual battle. You could "Release" them at midday (as is done in the Historical Scenario), but then the Confederate player isn't stupid enough to countermarch them back and forth needlessly and waste them.

You might also have these units arrive as "reinforcements" from the southern part of the map on the Rebel left by late afternoon to represent them arriving on the "embattled flank" too late "to help defend it."

In reality, I don't care all that much, lol. Were all just talking hypothetically anyways. The Historical Scenario has been the same since about 2005. Whether or not everyone agrees of disagrees with every detail of it is a moot point in the grand scheme of things.


FYI - A much more interesting conversation might be re-evaluating why Miles's Division is perpetually FIXED in the historical battle. But that's a can of worms best left closed I think.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 14, 2023 5:31 pm 
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Blake wrote:


FYI - A much more interesting conversation might be re-evaluating why Miles's Division is perpetually FIXED in the historical battle. But that's a can of worms best left closed I think.


You know I can't resist looking into things, just to see if it is a can of worms or something else.

Researching Miles Division is difficult. If you search the Official Records for 'Miles' you get all the results for 'miles' as well (338 hits in one volume alone which was too much for me to bother with). A search for '5th Division' bought no joy either (2 hits, neither was relevant). Searching for 'Fifth Division' bought a little more joy (59 hits).
Essentially, Miles Fifth Division was ordered (https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=coo.31924077730186&seq=322&q1=) to go to Centreville where it would act as a reserve. In writing his report (Miles claims illness at the time of writing) Miles describes the actions of his Division. Miles gives a lengthy description (starts here [bottom of page] - https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=coo.31924077730186&seq=439&q1= of a division that didn't do much at all.

I also found an allegation of Miles being drunk during the battle. The allegation was made by Col. Israel B. Richardson, Fourth Brigade, First Division who says he was advised by the Commander of Third Michigan Regiment that "Colonel Miles is drunk" (https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=coo.31924077730186&seq=392&q1=). Miles later denied that claim (https://bullrunnings.wordpress.com/2020/09/14/col-dixon-miles-5th-division-defends-his-actions/).

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 14, 2023 6:36 pm 
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I haven't done any research on this topic at all and base the following as, literally, the only evidence I have to present that Miles's Division was much more involved in the battle than they are given credit for by WDS in the historical scenario.

If I type in the word "Miles" into my Kindle search tool in the Longacre, Edward G.. The Early Morning of War: Bull Run, 1861 book, I get 51 results in regard to Dixon Miles.

If I type in "Davies" (an active BC under Miles) I get 215 results.

If I type in "Blenker" (an inactive BC under Miles) I get 26 results.


By comparison, if I type in "Holmes" I get 12 results.

If I type in "Ewell", I get 77 results.


I have no more information to offer :mrgreen:

But going on nothing at all more than that, I have to imagine that Davies, if not Miles and Blenker, was active enough to justify more research as to whether he should be FIXED or not.


UPDATE

Well.... curiosity killed the cat.


I ended up making a quick purchase and downloading The Maps of First Bull Run by Bradley Gottfried.

I believe this singular map ends the argument about whether Davies brigade should be fixed or not at First Bull Run. There is no way they could be both here and at Centreville as in the scenario. They should be unfixed at some point in the game.

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I'd still have to do research to add anything more substantial.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 14, 2023 8:08 pm 
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Enjoy the book. The bonus section on Ball's Bluff is very interesting (not recommended for the squeamish - a fearful slaughter of the Union).

The centre of Centreville is only just off Gottfried's map to the north.
The point where you see an arrow emanating from 31 NY (pointing to a circled 4) is Hex {127,31} in the Bull Run scenario. Should the CSA enter that hex then Miles Division will be released from their 'Fixed' status. The scenario represents the positioning of Miles Division at 0300 (probably not strictly accurate. Blenker's brigade should probably be where Davies' brigade is and vice versa). Later in the morning when the roads were clear Blenker moved to Centerville and began constructing breastworks.

In the battle, Jones Brigade (CSA) then moves to the bridge over Little Rocky Run and, in Miles report (provided above), fires upon men from Davies Brigade. In any scenario if Jones, or any other CSA unit, moves to the same position then Miles entire Division will be released and able to operate freely. [You can also find Miles' accuser, Richardson, in the scenario at Hex {110,26}. Gottfried places him a little closer to Centreville after sun-up which is correct as Miles reports that he visited him (after visiting Richardson, Miles "returned to Centreville").] In the battle Davies' men were fired upon by Jones' Brigade. Miles reports:
"He [the CSA unit] opened fire, which was handsomely returned. In this affair three of the Sixteenth New York Volunteers were wounded. The skirmishers report the force of the enemy greatly damaged by Greene’s battery [attached to Davies' brigade]. I made no other attempt on this ford, my orders being on no account to get into a general engagement."

Edited to add:

Ball's Bluff - A Reverie - Herman Melville (author of Moby Dick)
One noonday, at my window in the town,
I saw a sight — saddest that eyes can see —
Young soldiers marching lustily
Unto the wars,
With fifes, and flags in mottoed pageantry;
While all the porches, walks, and doors
Were rich with ladies cheering royally.

They moved like Juny morning on the wave,
Their hearts were fresh as clover in its prime
(It was the breezy summer time),
Life throbbed so strong,
How should they dream that Death in rosy clime
Would come to thin their shining throng?
Youth feels immortal, like the gods sublime.

Weeks passed; and at my window, leaving bed,
By nights I mused, of easeful sleep bereft,
On those brave boys (Ah War! thy theft);
Some marching feet
Found pause at last by cliffs Potomac cleft;
Wakeful I mused, while in the street
Far footfalls died away till none were left.

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