American Civil War Game Club (ACWGC)

I just had four cannon captured...

by a retreating melee loser! And they would be outnumbered by the guns crews in a stand up fight!

Here is a fancy map I spent lots of time making: (C=Confederate, U=Union, A=My artillery units)

C---C
C-U-C
<b>C</b>-A-C
C

The Union unit is in column facing due north and disrupted, about 100 men. I attacked with the Bold faced unit from the SW and won the melee very easily. I fully excpected the Union unit to retreat to the north, towards their main lines, away from my main lines, and away from the direction where my attack originated.

What did they do? They moved due south, and my artillery units were eliminated! [:(!] This stupid enemy unit, now numbering no more than around 60 men after melee losses of about 40, were able to capture 4 fully manned cannon that should number about 25 men per gun, right? So not only would they be outnumbered by my artillery crewmen, they would still be surrounded by another few thousand rebs within a hex or two on all sides of them...

Now we need a patch to fix the stupid patch! Why should the losing side be rewarded? I can understand not allowing the ZOC of the non-infantry or cavalry unit to ZOC kill the losing unit, but I can't understand rewarding the losing unit by allowing them to capture anyone in the hex they move into... The least they can do is move the friendly units into the next hex out of the path of the retreating melee loser.

If limbered artillery are hard to kill when meleeing directly, why should they be completely eliminated by a retreating enemy unit that just lost a melee!?!?!?

If you can write code to move a melee loser, you can certainly write code to also move a non-ZOC exerting unit (wagons, limbered guns, leaders) out of a neighboring hex to make room for the melee loser. But for God sake don't reward the losers! That's just rediculous.[}:)]

Regards,

Brig. Gen. Alan Lynn
2nd Div, II Corps, AoA
VMI Training Staff

God Bless <><

Your best bet is to send an email to HPS support.

<b><font color="gold">Ernie Sands
General, Commanding, Army of Ohio

ACWGC Cabinet member
</b></font id="gold">

Defending units can't retreat forward.

Also, did you remember this rule?

<i>- Updated engine to reflect the melee rule change that prevents Leaders, supply wagons, and limbered arty from being used to block retreats.</i>

If neither of these explanations apply, then contact HPS support as suggested.

Rich

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Rich Walker</i>
<br />Defending units can't retreat forward.

Also, did you remember this rule?

<i>- Updated engine to reflect the melee rule change that prevents Leaders, supply wagons, and limbered arty from being used to block retreats.</i>

If neither of these explanations apply, then contact HPS support as suggested.

Rich
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

That explaination for the new rule does not say that units will be eliminated, however. I remembered the rule before I initiated the melee, yes. It was the first instance since the update where I have had any of those units in a position where this could happen. I wasn't using the limbered guns to block a retreat, I was trying to keep them up with my advance and assumed that scared Yankees would naturally retreat towards their main army when attacked from behind, not away from their main army and back towards the direction their attackers came from...

And I don't understand the whole "defending units can't retreat forward" concept - why the heck not? If I were in a heavily outnumbered unit that was meleed from behind, I would sure as heck retreat forward!?!? [:0] What on earth is the point of that rule? (This is a serious question, not a rant of an angry general. [:)])

Regards,

Brig. Gen. Alan Lynn
2nd Div, II Corps, AoA
VMI Training Staff

God Bless <><

In regards to your question, the best I can answer would imply that a retreating unit going forward would be considered advancing toward an enemy after being defeated, and thus they would be demoralized and captured.

In a ZOC game, the defending unit would be eliminated without question. So in a game of soft ZOCs, limitations need to be applied to prevent the illogical. And defeated enemy wouldn't advance toward the enemy. And it's assumed that a unit will face the enemy.

Also, most slaughtered armies were destroyed in the pursuit. Thus a forward retreat would be considered a running mob being shot in the back. So to prevent the slaughter of hapless retreating soldiers, they are surrended.

As for lost arty, yes a rule clarification is needed if it doesn't exist in the updated manual. Though your example was a small regiment of about 60, they could have just as easily been a large unit, killing as they retreated in good order.

Rich

I had something similar occur just recently in a Peninsula campaign.

It was a night turn. A routed unit wandered into my lines. The routed unit took ranged fire casualties in my subsequent turn. The next turn the routed unit routed into a hex containing one of my supply wagons. I assume the unit routed there because it looked like it showed up in the hex during at the start of the replay.

The wagon retained it's Confederate coloration but I was unable to move it durng my turn. In a subsequent turn the routed unit returned to disrupted good order but the wagon did not change it's coloration and I was still not able to move it. Once the Union unit moved out of the hex I was able to command the wagon again.

The wagon wasn't used to block the retreat; as far as I knew it was safely within my lines.

If I understand General Lynn's map correctly, the limbered artillery was involved in blocking the retreat path of the Union regiment. Losing the artillery unit does seem a bit extreme but it makes some sense in the context of the new rule from the point of view that blocking ZOC with limbered artillery is gamey to begin with and needs to be discouraged. God knows I've used whatever comes to hand in trying to bottle up enemy units so I'll have to be more mindful of this from now on.

What concerns me is whether a routed unit could do the same thing in a situation similar to the one I described above.

In any event, you have my sympathies Gen Lynn. A Confederate 4 gun battery is an asset in short supply.

Col Michael Burns, CSA
2/1/III/AotM

Col M Burns, CSA
2/1/III/AotM

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Rich Walker</i>
<br />In regards to your question, the best I can answer would imply that a retreating unit going forward would be considered advancing toward an enemy after being defeated, and thus they would be demoralized and captured.

In a ZOC game, the defending unit would be eliminated without question. So in a game of soft ZOCs, limitations need to be applied to prevent the illogical. And defeated enemy wouldn't advance toward the enemy. And it's assumed that a unit will face the enemy.

Also, most slaughtered armies were destroyed in the pursuit. Thus a forward retreat would be considered a running mob being shot in the back. So to prevent the slaughter of hapless retreating soldiers, they are surrended.

As for lost arty, yes a rule clarification is needed if it doesn't exist in the updated manual. Though your example was a small regiment of about 60, they could have just as easily been a large unit, killing as they retreated in good order.

Rich
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Then perhaps an exception needs to be made for units that are in column and facing towards their own lines when attacked in the rear, etc. as was the case with my situation. I fully agree with no retreating towards the enemy, but that is exactly what happened in this case...

Regards,

Brig. Gen. Alan Lynn
2nd Div, II Corps, AoA
VMI Training Staff

God Bless <><

There is always going to be the odd occurance, as was your situation. But the bottom line is to remember that there can be no forward retreats. So it's not necessary to place a unit directly in front of a unit. If forced to retreat forward, it will die.

Trajan's situation is an unrelated situation. I too had that happen, and I can't fully explain it. I'll ask John.

Rich

Regarding the supply wagon situation.

John said this is an old bug an should be fixed with the next update.

Rich

I think I remember reading that gun crews only count as 8 men towards melee results, would that affect the result in some way?

Lt. Gen. Ed Blackburn
II/VI/AoS

"Forward Bucktails"

As I am the officer who gained by this little glitch, I'm mighty happy! No patch fix needed for a little while IMHO![:D][:p]

4 fewer guns and 240 extrap VP's - both will be needed, since I'm getting routed off the map![xx(]


General Jeff Laub
Union Chief of the Army
ACWGC Cabinet Member
http://www.geocities.com/laubster22/UnionHQ/

Regarding the use of limbered arty to help surround an enemy unit, there is no glitch. Don't do it.

The glitch was concerning the enemy occupied supply wagon.

Rich