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Rich Hamilton
 Post subject: Alternate PDT file?
PostPosted: Sun Jul 22, 2001 12:19 am 
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Anyone using this...? For 1812 that is...

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D.S. Walter
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 22, 2001 2:22 am 
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When I read it in the manual I thought I would try it, and maybe use it often. But the procedure is so complicated that I have never dared suggest it to an opponent, in fear of the reaction I often get at the ACW club when proposing a Norris game: "oh, no, not something I have to download first" ... In this case: "what, edit the game file?" <br>
I suppose it's not possible to make this just an optional rule?

<font color=blue>Lt. Col. Walter, 3/2/VIII AoS</font id=blue><br>SLt. Walter, Artillery, 2nd Prussian Brig.<br><font color=red>Cpl. Walter, 4th Regt. "King's Own"</font id=red><br><br><img src="http://home.datacomm.ch/dierk.walter/Fahnen.gif" border=0>

Edited by - D.S. Walter on 07/22/2001 08:22:51
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Al Amos
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 22, 2001 11:12 am 
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D.S.

I'm not sure about making it an optional rule, but it would be very, very easy to make an altrenate set of scenarios by replacing the standard pdt files with the alternate one and renaming the new version.

I'd be willing to do the work, if you guys would want to play the games with it, and if Rich thinks its a doable idea.

Sgt. Al Amos, 1st US Dragoons, 1812-R



Edited by - Al Amos on 07/22/2001 17:14:06
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D.S. Walter
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 22, 2001 3:38 pm 
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The concept of the alternate PDT file sounds very convincing. I'd like to play with it, and to suggest it to opponents. <br>
I don't know how the fact that no-one else contributed to this thread should be interpreted. It could mean that hardly anyone has noticed that the alternate file is even there ... alternate scenarios COULD help, I think.

<font color=blue>Lt. Col. Walter, 3/2/VIII AoS</font id=blue><br>SLt. Walter, Artillery, 2nd Prussian Brig.<br><font color=red>Cpl. Walter, 4th Regt. "King's Own"</font id=red><br><br><img src="http://home.datacomm.ch/dierk.walter/Fahnen.gif" border=0>
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Stefan Reuter
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 22, 2001 3:55 pm 
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Dierk,
maybe this is a silly question ... But for what do I need an alternate PDT?

CCC - 1. Regiment (Royal Scots), British Army, Leutnant
NWC - I. Corps, Prussia, General
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Al Amos
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 22, 2001 6:17 pm 
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Stefan,

The alternate pdt file takes into account that the ground scale is only 40 yards.

The standard pdt file has the most killing done by weapons at one hex away, and for a ground scale of 100 yards, where the engine and us players migrated from, that is good.

At 40 yards to the hex however, ranges should still be deadly 2 or 3 hexes out.

Also, canister did not fully expand until travel 30 or 40 yards, so the MOST deadly range for cannons in the alternate pdt file is 2 - 6 hexes.

A very fun way to fight. You can actually get stand up firer fights blazing for 15-20 minutes at a time at 2-3 hex distances.

And if you insist on moving in to one hex range bring body bags, lots of them.

Sgt Al Amos, 1st US Dragoons, 1812-R
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D.S. Walter
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 22, 2001 6:19 pm 
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Not at all. They have hidden the explanation very effectively in the last paragraphs of the "Campaign Notes", one of the help files within the game. In short, the alternate PDT file produces significantly higher casualties at point-blank range, for both musket and cannon fire.

<font color=blue>Lt. Col. Walter, 3/2/VIII AoS</font id=blue><br>SLt. Walter, Artillery, 2nd Prussian Brig.<br><font color=red>Cpl. Walter, 4th Regt. "King's Own"</font id=red><br><br><img src="http://home.datacomm.ch/dierk.walter/Fahnen.gif" border=0>
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Rich Hamilton
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 22, 2001 6:24 pm 
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All,

Here are the notes from the game help file - (part 1):

Another added feature that Curt Good and I have put forth is the inclusion of a file called "Alternate.pdt". Following are the notes relating to that special file:

The primary difference that players will note between the original PDT file and the optional alternate PDT file is that the alternate file will produce significantly higher casualties in certain circumstances. The alternate file is intended to take advantage of the nuances made possible by the scale of the game (125 feet/42 yards per hex) to more closely model actual historical lethality patterns. Players should be aware, however, that there may be a potential cost to their enjoyment of the game if they fail to adjust their tactics accordingly.

While the musket's inaccuracy was notorious, there is often a tendency to forget that once the range of engagement began to move inside 100 yards, that inaccuracy became much less of a practical factor and the lethality of massed musketry began to rise steeply. While longer ranged duels would tend to be attritional in nature, close range volleys by formed units were quite capable of ripping decisive chunks out of the enemy line at a single stroke. Accordingly, pressing an attack to very close range would usually result in one side or the other breaking rather quickly. Historically, the offensive role of artillery and skirmishers was to produce enough prior disorder in the defender's ranks to allow formed units to survive closing with the defender to the point where they could deliver decisive close range fire and break the enemy line. Of course, if the defender was still in relatively good order, the attack might be shredded by close range defensive fire and break instead, leaving behind a disconcertingly large pile of bodies.

To put it very simply, there is a vast difference between the likely consequences of engaging at 125 yards (3 hexes) and the likely consequences of engaging at 42 yards (1 hex).

Modeling this in the game, however, has its risks. An active debate began among the developers as to whether players would still enjoy a game in which units could be quickly torn apart and routed? Would this ruin the game? The alternate view was that tendency of play testers to close to adjacent hexes was more an artifact of tactics that they learned in larger scale games, and that in time players would learn to adjust their tactics to fit the realities of the smaller 42 yard hex scale. As such, the players themselves would preserve the playability of the game by becoming more judicious about their decisions regarding when it is or is not appropriate to press to very close range.

Artillery firepower is also adjusted in the alternate PDT to create a more historically accurate lethality footprint given the scale. Accordingly, players using the alternate PDT should take the following differences into account and be aware of the fact that the pattern of artillery lethality is somewhat different than that which they may have become accustom to in larger scale games.



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Rich Hamilton
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jul 22, 2001 6:25 pm 
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Part 2:

In contrast to the standard PDT, when using the alternate PDT, maximum artillery lethality is not achieved until range two (84 yards). This was done to represent the idea that the cone of projectiles formed by a canister round would need to travel a certain minimum distance before expanding sufficiently to achieve its maximum potential to generate casualties. (The standard PDT assumes a more rapidly expanding cone of projectiles than the alternate, and thus produces the same pattern as players may be familiar with from larger scale games -- i.e. maximum firepower is achieved at range one.) It is left to the player to decide which model is more appropriate.

Another difference between the standard PDT and the alternate in the area of artillery effectiveness is that greater allowance has been made in the alternate PDT for the depth of the canister footprint, especially with respect to larger caliber loads. The higher firepower values associated with canister reach out further and drop off more slowly. This means that the alternate PDT tends to make artillery more effective overall, and particularly more effective in the 84 to 250 yard range band (2 to 6 hexes). Once again, the player is advised of the potential increase in casualties to be expected when employing the alternate PDT and is cautioned to adjust his tactics and expectations accordingly.

Note that if you are contemplating a game with another player as opposed to a solitaire situation, both players must employ the same PDT file in order for the game to function. The procedure for substituting the alternate PDT file for the original is as follows.

Start a new game, we will assume it is a PBEM (Play-by-email) game. Without selecting PBEM Encryption save the file and close the game. Then go into Windows Explorer or My Computer and browser to your game directory. Find your new game file (in this example we are going to call it game.bte)

Open the game file by double clicking on it. If you have never done this before a window will pop up asking you what program to use to open the file. Choose "Notepad" and click ok.

A new window will pop up and you will be looking at the contents of the PBEM file. It will look something like this:

----- PEM Header -----
1 0 -1 -1
3
The Battle of Fort Meigs, May 5th, 1813
1813 5 5 7 45 0 0 10 24
10 20 20
10 20 20
-200 -100 100 200
2 2 0 0 20223 0
49 23
Fort Meigs.map

Fort Meigs.oob
Fort Meigs.pdt

The line we are concerned with is the bold one above. The game is currently looking at the Fort Meigs.pdt file. We are going to change that to Alternate.pdt once you do that you can save and close the file. You are ready to open the game back up and start playing again. Your opponent already has the Alternate.pdt file in their directory so no modification is necessary on their end.

The reason it is suggested that you make the modification to the PBEM file is, it only effects your current game. If you make the change to the .scn file before starting the game, and then forget to change it back afterward, every subsequent game you start will pull the Alternate.pdt file and your opponents may not want to use that.

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Rich Hamilton
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jul 22, 2001 6:27 pm 
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Al,

I have absolutely NO problem with an entire set of scenarios being made for use with the alternate pdt file. The question is, would people use it...?

Before any effort is put forth I think you should see what sort of reaction you get to this thread...of course if you are bored. <img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>

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wjbraddock
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jul 22, 2001 11:25 pm 
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Rich,

I've used it with Al when I first got the game. Loved it, and it's not as difficult to do as the instructions make it seem.

B Gen Bill Braddock, Commandant VMI, 2/III ANV Commanding
<font color=red>Bill Braddock, Regular, 1812 Brigades - 4th Brigade - 27th Regiment (Enniskillings)</font id=red>
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miller41
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2001 4:17 am 
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Location: USA
I have not used this yet, but would be more than willing to do so if alternate scenarios were there to use, it would make the firefights that really happened happen. Just played my first game of 1812 with Sam Orlando and there was alot of melee for a battle with only 1300 men total!
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415
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2001 8:46 am 
Any chance of an alternate PDT being developed for 1776?

John Menichelli
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10th-North Lincoln
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Ernie Sands
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2001 9:16 am 
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I have not used it in a "real" game, but did find the Alternate PDT to work very well. It is very easy to use and setup.

Just started a new 1812 game using the Alternate.PDT.

<b><font color=orange>Ernie Sands</b></font id=orange>
<b><font color=red>LtCol, 3rd East Kent,British Army,CCC
Lt,1 Konig,VIII Corps, Adu
BG, 3/3/X AoO
President, CC Club
Schütze,183Inf Regt,VIII Korps, PzC </b></font id=red>


Edited by - ernie sands on 07/27/2001 06:49:14
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Rich Hamilton
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 26, 2001 9:36 am 
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Bumping this up to the top...any one else tried it?

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