Colonial Campaigns Club (CCC)

Am I mistaken or was the latest 76 patch supposed to tone down the automated defensive fire? If it was, as far as I can tell it didn't do squat! I sure hope Corinth is better. This is just about the silliest game engine that I've ever run across. All my games will be played with the old system, and they can take this new one and- never mind, this is supposed to be a family board.

Ens Dwight Conlan
Eastern Dept
3rd Brigade- 5th Regiment

Col Dwight Conlan
The Immortals Division
III Corps- ANV

Lt Dwight Conlan
1/6 Artillerie a Chaval
ere Brig-2eme Div
Cavalerie Legere-II Corps
Armee du Nord

That is because you are a Colonial lackey! IT plays fine for the British!<img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>

<b><font color=red>Ernie Sands
Col, 3rd East Kent,CCC
LtCol,1 Konig,VIII,AdR
BG,CO XXIII Corps AoO
President, Colonial Camp Club
Sch,183Inf,VIII,PzC
Pvt B Co, 3/3-MBC </b></font id=red>

Ernie- Thanks for clearing that up- I knew there had to be a reason- I assume HPS has most of it's financial backing from Britain

Ens Dwight Conlan
Eastern Dept
3rd Brigade- 5th Regiment

MGen Dwight Conlan
Longstreets Corps
ANV

Lt Dwight Conlan
1/6 Artillerie a Chaval
ere Brig-2eme Div
Cavalerie Legere-II Corps
Armee du Nord

Actually, I have felt the defensive fire seemed to favor the Americans, since they have so many units... It's a matter of perception, bullets hurt more when the guns are pointed at you.

Larry Davis
Captain of
His Royal Majesty's
64th regiment of Foot
on the CCC

Here'as a good one- at Germantown, 33 Colonial units move into position and fire once each- 8 British units fire a total of 43 times!!- under ideal conditions you may be able to fire, load, aim, and fire a flintlock in this space of time, under combat conditons this is less likely- making this even more unlikely is trying to do this with the bayonett in place- it'a damn near impossible- combine that with all the smoke floating around from this many shots and you'd be lucky to hit anything- in this scenario there very few non casualty counts in the British fire- HPS had better get their act togeather and clean this up because once the word gets out to the casual buyer about how poorly they have done their job they won't sell many of these except to idiots like us!

Ens Dwight Conlan
Eastern Dept
3rd Brigade- 5th Regiment

MGen Dwight Conlan
Longstreets Corps
ANV

Lt Dwight Conlan
1/6 Artillerie a Chaval
ere Brig-2eme Div
Cavalerie Legere-II Corps
Armee du Nord

Dwight,

Please contact John Tiller. He is very good at looking into these types of things.

Have a specific file(s) for him to look at.

I know venting is good for the soul, but let's be constructive please. <img src=icon_smile.gif border=0 align=middle>

Major Al Amos
1st U.S. Dragoons 1812-R

[url="http://www.angelfire.com/ok4/amos/CCC/1812regulars.htm"]<img src="http://www.angelfire.com/ok4/amos/CCC/chippewa_s.gif " border=0>[/url]

Al- My apologies if I offended anyone.

Ens Dwight Conlan
Eastern Dept
3rd Brigade- 5th Regiment

MGen Dwight Conlan
Longstreets Corps
ANV

Lt Dwight Conlan
1/6 Artillerie a Chaval
ere Brig-2eme Div
Cavalerie Legere-II Corps
Armee du Nord

Dwight,
Think about the alternative, units dancing in front of the enemy changing formation willy-nilly and the defender who is the one who is still and not moving does nothing? He fires only after taking a shot to the chops. I respect your opinion but disagree completely.
[url="http://.choctaws1.homestead.com/irregulars.html"]<img src="http://www.choctaws1.homestead.com/files/l2feaths.gif" border=0>[/url]

Mingoe "High Head" Rodes
Pushmataha's Choctaws
1812 American Army Irregulars

Wow, 43 shots. In terms of realism, most Brits only carried 36 in their box. Occasionally they were given more. Their muskets would have fouled before that as well. One thing I notice is that d fire seems to always result in casualties when offensive fire does not, even when the O troops did not move in the previous turn. Wasn't there a note early on that said the d fire would only be 25% effective?

Larry Davis
Captain of
His Royal Majesty's
64th regiment of Foot
on the CCC

William- I respect your opinion of course, and I have always recognized your point that the defensive units should be able to fire more times as the offensive troops burn up time in their advance- however, I stand by my statement that, unless they are carrying breechloaders, they can't do this that many times and get the resulting hits that are in this game - don't misunderstand me, I'm not saying no multiple defensive shots- but, in my opinion, these excessive number of volleys and the casualty results therefrom is not anywhere close to what is possible with these weapons and the ignition systems in use at the time- play around with a flintlock sometime- if you can aim, load, fire, and relaod one with the bayonette in place this quickly and peer through the clouds of smoke to hit something, then you handle one much better than I do- to say nothing of doing this with someone trying to shoot back at you

Ens Dwight Conlan
Eastern Dept
3rd Brigade- 5th Regiment

MGen Dwight Conlan
Longstreets Corps
ANV

Lt Dwight Conlan
1/6 Artillerie a Chaval
ere Brig-2eme Div
Cavalerie Legere-II Corps
Armee du Nord

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=2 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
One thing I notice is that d fire seems to always result in casualties when offensive fire does not, even when the O troops did not move in the previous turn.
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>
My experience is the opposite ... Unlike in the BG games, offensive fire usually produces more casualties, except when facing very strong companies (those 100+ Yankee coys at Bunker Hill sometimes inflicted twice the number of casualties on me with their reaction fire).
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=2 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>Wasn't there a note early on that said the d fire would only be 25% effective?
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>
I seem to recall it was 50%, but maybe that was before the upgrade.

<font color=red>Capt. Walter
4th Regiment "King's Own"
AdC, Royal North American Corps of 1812</font id=red>

I think I have said this before, but maybe it bears repeating.

In regards to the ADF, perhaps multiple shots by defender D should by viewed as a cumulative effect.
Example: attacker A begins his move 6 hexes away and moves in LOS straight at D. D fires on say 4 out of 6 moves, causing A 4 casualties (1,0,1,2). Would it not be logical to assume that the fire was held until the threat moved reasonably close, and at that time was taken to ensure an accurate volley, causing 4 casualties, was made?

Also, concerning the rate of fire, John Keegan in The Face of Battle, lists reload & fire times for a musket, by trained troops in action to be between 20 and 30 seconds. (This was for British at Waterloo). Peter Harrington in Culloden 1746 states that Goverment Soldiers were expected to be able to fire at 4 to 5 times per minute. This seems high and is of course in ideal conditions. Obviously with these rates of fire the battles would be over in 6 turns, but then again, not every soldier fires when a unit fires with the rank system.

Cpt. Mike Cox
New Jersey Militia
(1st Hunterdon Cty)
AdC American Army

Mike- rate of fire and rate of effective fire are two very different things- The four to five times a minute firing rate is way out of line with normal loading- the only way this rate could be approximated was with a technique of loading the weapon without the use of the ramrod, then pounding the butt of the musket on the ground once or twice, thereby trying to force the ball down on the powder, compacting the powder, and also forcing some powder out through the touch hole into the pan- the soldier, if using this method, always had to remember first to close the frizzen after firing, which was not always done when things were hot enough to require this speed method of loading- all of this of course resulted in a much increased rate of misfire over the <u>minimal</u> 10% generally accepted for the flintlock, and since the powder was minimally compacted, if it did fire, it was nowhere near as capable of hitting anything at the expected 80 yards- I also wonder if those cited fully understand that these troops were standing shoulder to shoulder and that the jostling about of the men on either side of you slowed down the fire rate as well- what was expected as the normal rate of fire was very often not what was actually achieved- 80 yards was about the maximum range at which you could be expected to hit something that you took <u>careful</u> aim at- you might hit something of course over this range up to about 120 yards but it probably would not be what you were aiming at- a hit at over 120 yards was possible but with drastically reduced odds- take into consideration the fouling rate of the black powder you were burning up as well-the weapon became increasingly more difficult to load after a relatively few number of shots, plus the accuracy went down correspondingly- smoke from multiple shots was like pea soup- return fire was often only at the muzzle flashes of the opposing fire that would burn through this fog- if the enemy was only advancing and not firing, you were literally firing blind- my argument is not only with, in my opinion, the exagerated rate of fire demonstrated here, but as much so with the resultant effects in casualty counts

Ens Dwight Conlan
Eastern Dept
3rd Brigade- 5th Regiment

MGen Dwight Conlan
Longstreets Corps
ANV

Lt Dwight Conlan
1/6 Artillerie a Chaval
ere Brig-2eme Div
Cavalerie Legere-II Corps
Armee du Nord

Of course since none of us were there do we really know? No. We all have our interpretations of the facts.

ADF is better, IMO, than having free riegn to dance in front of the enemy.

Proper planning and preparation before entering the kill zone limits the amount of D fire you may receive.

Perhaps we're all still struggling with the learning curve of how to plan and prepare properly before we close.

Major Al Amos
1st U.S. Dragoons 1812-R

[url="http://www.angelfire.com/ok4/amos/CCC/1812regulars.htm"]<img src="http://www.angelfire.com/ok4/amos/CCC/chippewa_s.gif " border=0>[/url]

Al- a good point re the learning curve considering that this is a game with certain sets of preconcieved ideas by those that produced it- however, familiarity with the weapons used still tells you what was possible and what was not- hold and fire a flintlock now and it's the same weapon held and fired 250 years ago- the Brown Bess is a beautiful weapon as is the Charleville that is even longer and heavier although it's caliber is "only" .69 as opposed to the Bess's .75- it always amazes me that people lugged these muskets around- much is lost to the history books, so you are correct in saying that since none of us were there, we probably all have our own ideas about what it was like- but we do have the same weapons avaiable to us and if we "listen" to them we can infer much more than what we know from a book

Ens Dwight Conlan
Eastern Dept
3rd Brigade- 5th Regiment

MGen Dwight Conlan
Longstreets Corps
ANV

Lt Dwight Conlan
1/6 Artillerie a Chaval
ere Brig-2eme Div
Cavalerie Legere-II Corps
Armee du Nord