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Lawrence Bouton
 Post subject: DF in New 1776 Patch
PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2001 9:13 am 
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Just a quick question. Why can a unit only fire once in the OF phase while the defending units can fire numerous times (how many times can a defending unit fire, by the way?). I'm still getting use to this non-phased game (trying to remember not to close the turn out before shooting!)

Larry
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Rich Hamilton
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2001 3:05 pm 
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When a unit fires in defesive fire (opportunity fire) it only shoots at 50% strength. The rationale behind this is troops would squeze off shots randomly as an enemy unit moved near it. To my knowledge there is no limit to the number of times a unit can fire, which can become quite annoying, I know. <img src=icon_smile_sad.gif border=0 align=middle> The solution to this is, get your facing and formation changes done prior to coming within range of enemy units if at all possible. Don't even move your leaders once you are in range, or that will trigger shots as well.

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D.S. Walter
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2001 3:15 pm 
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OK, Rich, I told you once I had one unit fire at me 13 times in defense. That may be a weird exception, but 4 to 5 seems to be quite normal. Now if they fire at 50% strength <u>every time</u>, that will still give them more than twice the defensive fire capacity compared to the traditional four-phase model. That would mean the defense is dramatically strenghtened in the one-phase format. Am I missing something? Should the ratio not be decreased, or rather decrease with any time they fire?

<font color=blue>Lt. Walter, 3/2/VIII AoS</font id=blue><br>SLt. Walter, Artillery, 2nd Prussian Brigade<br><font color=red>Reg. Walter, 4th Rgt. "King's Own"</font id=red><br><br><img src="http://home.datacomm.ch/dierk.walter/Fahnen3.jpg" border=0>
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Bill Peters
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2001 3:16 pm 
Adding on to what Rich had to say is this:
1. It is best to put your guys in line and then move forward.
2. Move STACKS of units and not single units or as Rich says you will trigger the shots.
3. YOUR guys get to do the same in your opponent's player phase. What goes around comes around.
4. Use LOS to block out potential shots on your units. I am not saying use a Supply Wagon (those get hit too!) but instead put your front line in place and then move things around behind your lines.
5. Attacking - this is tough as you get hit as you advance AND initiate the melee (I am not 100 percent sure on this). You can get disrupted before you attack thus cancelling out some of your attackers.
6. Guns are very susceptible to this D Fire. As stated above keep a shield in front of them when they move so that they dont get hit.
7. Finally, this new form of combat is MUCH more realistic. No more running by a stack of units and watch as they doff their hats and say "Fine to have seen you mate!" Now they douse you with bullets and watch you disrupt if they get you to fail your check.
I highly suggest that folks play several solo games before they engage in games in the club. Opponents - please dont whine at me if you find things out that you didnt know and it would have changed your tactics. Do some homework before you take on an opponent. Get to know ALL of the options as well and how they relate to the games.

Maj Gen (Brev.) Bill Peters, AoA, CSA
Capt. Bill Peters, Morgan's Rifles, CCC
Archduke Wilhelm, Austrian CoA, NWC
Lt. Bill Peters, PzC Club
Lt. Bill Peters, Frontline Club, 4th Engineers (in honor of my brother, Chris Fuller who fought in 'Nam)
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Rich Hamilton
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2001 6:24 pm 
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Dierk,

Not sure how you are getting a 4 or 5 average. I've been playing on this engine for somewhere about 8 months now, and while some units do fire sveral times, more often than not it is once or twice. I surely will not deny the possobility of a unit firing a rediculos amount of time though. But, like any other feature in a game, there are draw backs and exceptions to the way it should normally work.

It is true that I try to minimize my movements when in range, so that may be the answer to your problem. In the game we are playing now I am not seeing 4 or 5...I'll try to watch the replays and actions during my rounds better in future turns.

Regards,

Rich

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D.S. Walter
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2001 6:46 pm 
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Rich,

OK, probably I was exaggerating. I haven't counted it. I just had SOME units fire ridiculously often (Al also mentioned 7 times in some other thread). Still, if it's more than twice, they have a higher fire capacity (greater than 2 times 50%) than with the four-phase model. <br>
But apart from that calculation, I admit I LOVE the one-phase mode. As Cpt. Peters said, it sure adds much realism.

<font color=blue>Lt. Walter, 3/2/VIII AoS</font id=blue><br>SLt. Walter, Artillery, 2nd Prussian Brigade<br><font color=red>Reg. Walter, 4th Rgt. "King's Own"</font id=red><br><br><img src="http://home.datacomm.ch/dierk.walter/Fahnen3.jpg" border=0>
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Al Amos
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2001 7:16 pm 
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Dearest D.S.,

May offer a suggestion that the four-phase model had it wrong? <img src=icon_smile.gif border=0 align=middle> and the one-step method is a more accurate model of what non-moving troops can do under 'battle fire' orders.

After all, once upon a time it was discovered the flat world model was inaccurate, too. hehehehe...

Just messin' with ya <img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>

<b>ACWGC </b>MajGen Ambushed - USA
<b>CCC </b> Sgt Amos - 1st US Dragoons, 1812
<b>FL </b> Cpt Amos (ret)
<b>NWC </b> Colonel Amos - 1er Dragoons, AdN



Edited by - Al Amos on 06/12/2001 01:17:53
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G Cope
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2001 9:18 pm 
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One thing for sure -- us "bulls in the china closet" sure do pay for it in the new engine <img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>

Garry Cope
[url="http://web2.airmail.net/gco047/1776/DucCope/ddillon.htm"]1er,7e,d'Dillon,French,CCC[/url] Lt Colonel
[url="http://web2.airmail.net/gco047/csausa/4thTexas/4thTexas.htm"]1st Div, II-Corps, ANV, ACWC[/url] General
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D.S. Walter
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2001 4:59 am 
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This is just an idea. I couldn't find anything on it in the manual, but Rich should be able to explain this. <br> Does the game engine calculate how often a defending unit fires, or rather decide whether the advancing unit is fired upon (and then picks a unit from the other side to do the firing)?
For that would mean that defending units would fire much more often when greatly outnumbered by the attacker. In my 13 times case, a Indian Warrior unit was shooting at two American regiments coming down a narrow road company by company.

<font color=blue>Lt. Walter, 3/2/VIII AoS</font id=blue><br>SLt. Walter, Artillery, 2nd Prussian Brigade<br><font color=red>Reg. Walter, 4th Rgt. "King's Own"</font id=red><br><br><img src="http://home.datacomm.ch/dierk.walter/Fahnen3.jpg" border=0>
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Rich Hamilton
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2001 10:22 am 
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I believe it is whether the advancing unit is to be fired upon. However there's really no point in beating this to death. John isn't going to change how it is functioning now. Sorry. The "13" times example you experianced is VERY rare, and something I have never seen. Now if that was the norm, then he'd be addressing it for sure. We have already had a lengthy discussion about this during testing, and this is the way it is staying. You always have the option to return to the old multi-phase format, and this will be a total non-issue.

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D.S. Walter
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2001 10:30 am 
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Hey, no criticism intended. Just trying to figure out how it works. As I said, the idea as such is great.

<font color=blue>Lt. Walter, 3/2/VIII AoS</font id=blue><br>SLt. Walter, Artillery, 2nd Prussian Brigade<br><font color=red>Reg. Walter, 4th Rgt. "King's Own"</font id=red><br><br><img src="http://home.datacomm.ch/dierk.walter/Fahnen3.jpg" border=0>
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stephane
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2001 12:04 pm 
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Hi
maybe you are being fired at a lot of time because you have many movement point to use, and so do a lot of actions (cavalry = 24 mp)
It is true that this system is a dilemna, here are my pros and cons (sorry if my english is not so good) :

- traditionnal napoleonic wargames, since over a century, most of the time offers a DEFENSIVE PHASE.
Pros : It is an abstract way to represent "real time". It helps in thinking about what you are doing.
cons : It slows down the game though, and is not perfect, because you are too limited in the actions you can do during this defensive phase. We should be able to retreat before melee, call for reinforcements, etc.

- The new system tries to be a compromise between this and real time games. It is greatly inspired from EAST FRONT.
Cons : It needs tuning because it certainly has a "machinegun effect", and allows strange "blitzkrieg tactics".
pros : At last we will be able to play long battles !!!
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ld5253
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2001 1:54 pm 
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At 4 shots per minute, the regulars in the American Revolution on both sides could theoretically get off 20 shots in a 5 minute turn. This intensity was never reached, but one volley per minute by each company on an average would certainly be believeable. Riflemen fired at a slower rate, but in our game, 5 shots per man in 5 minutes is within reason as well. The only real problem that I see, is that typical cartridge boxes were designed to hold 36 rounds. So it seems that a unit should expend it's ammunition faster with multiple fires in a turn. Perhaps a future patch might incorporate a feature that allows a commander to keep track of the amount of ammunition left, and that after 36 shots or so, the unit would have none, unless near a supply source.

Larry Davis
Captain of
His Royal Majesty's
64th regiment of Foot
on the CCC
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Lawrence Bouton
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2001 1:55 pm 
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I can understand why a defensive unit can fire several times during my turn. What I don't understand is why, if I don't move during my turn, don't I get to fire several times? We've trained to hard to stay in line and march and shoot together, yet here we are all dressed up and we only get to shoot once (I know, I know, the actually firing in the game represents several vollies. Its an abstraction, etc).

Larry
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Al Amos
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2001 2:16 pm 
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Larry, the answer is simple.

During the offensive fire phase the company is operating under a controlled volley, therefore the men are waiting for you to order that volley to be fired.

Where as in the defensive fire the men are preforming battle fire or fire at will.

Hehehehe...at least that is how I look at it. Now if I can find that "fire at will" button during my offensive fire phase.

<b>ACWGC </b>MajGen Ambushed - USA
<b>CCC </b> Sgt Amos - 1st US Dragoons, 1812
<b>FL </b> Cpt Amos (ret)
<b>NWC </b> Colonel Amos - 1er Dragoons, AdN
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