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 Post subject: Combat Resolution
PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2018 3:59 am 
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I'm playtesting for engine mathematical errors in combat resolution. Using Leipzig getting started scenario with standard suggested ORs and MDF for firecontrol's sake. Here 350 men with muskets are firing at range 2 with what should be a pdt multiplier of 1. Instead they are being halved as if the muskets were firing with 0.5 with a result of 175 firepower instead of 350.


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Last edited by Geoff McCarty on Mon Sep 10, 2018 4:55 am, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Combat Resolution
PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2018 4:16 am 
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4 x Fr 5.7" Howitzers firing at range 4 should be: 4 (guns) x 80 (artillery fire manpower) x 2 (weapon range 4 fire effect) = 640 firepower
Instead it is reported as 400 firepower. I do not believe the report is in error it's some interlocuting bug.


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 Post subject: Re: Combat Resolution
PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2018 4:23 am 
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In this case 530 men are given a bonus of +25% instead of the manual's +20% statement for being in column during a melee attack.


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 Post subject: Re: Combat Resolution
PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2018 4:38 am 
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A column of 530 men firing at range 1 with an inexplicable firepower rating.
530 x 5 (musket FE range 1) x 0.33 (column fire malus) = 874.5
I hope I have demonstrated that this games most basic function of combat resolution is wholly broken. Unless I am in error in these tests it is obvious that there is some poorly handled code exchange within the executable which is malfunctioning. I am almost certain that the fire efficiency printed in the combat dialog is what gets passed to the combat value resolution generator due too the loss numbers in a multitude of tests. On the positive side the only 'working as designed' resolution was when I had a line fire on or melee another adjacent line except the stated *1.5 line fire efficiency. In no case of a modifier or range multiplier will the engine process as designed and stated in documentation.


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 Post subject: Re: Combat Resolution
PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2018 7:52 am 
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Testing my conclusion against an older version of the game I backtrace back to Austerlitz v1.02 (2012). The fire and melee efficiency and casualty reports are closer to what they should be but never spot on. Therefore probably from inception of the game being interfaced from Battlegrounds to Napoleonic Battles there has been some wildcard in the combat resolution calculation. Perhaps, in trying to fix a "stacking error" it has only become worse.

Tried in EAW:FIW and the problem reversed for ranged fire (doubled in value inconsistently). This can't possibly have been broken so long without notice and could be floating point digit errors due to crossplatforming MSVC code with the wrong runtime library in a Linux environment... I've been playing for months unaware of this problem :].


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 Post subject: Re: Combat Resolution
PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2018 12:53 pm 
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Geoff McCarty wrote:
I'm playtesting for engine mathematical errors in combat resolution. Using Leipzig getting started scenario with standard suggested ORs and MDF for firecontrol's sake. Here 350 men with muskets are firing at range 2 with what should be a pdt multiplier of 1. Instead they are being halved as if the muskets were firing with 0.5 with a result of 175 firepower instead of 350.

If the fire value is halved it's likely because the unit had moved that turn, if you have it in place go on till the next turn starts and retry. I don't see any problem with the fire value of muskets.


Geoff McCarty wrote:
4 x Fr 5.7" Howitzers firing at range 4 should be: 4 (guns) x 80 (artillery fire manpower) x 2 (weapon range 4 fire effect) = 640 firepower
Instead it is reported as 400 firepower. I do not believe the report is in error it's some interlocuting bug.

Has the weather any impact? Check the PDT lines for the date & time you have and see if any artillery mod is set. ANd maybe IÄm wrong but was there somthign extra for howitzers.... just can't remember.


Geoff McCarty wrote:
In this case 530 men are given a bonus of +25% instead of the manual's +20% statement for being in column during a melee attack.

I had explained it already somewhere else, the report is correct as the 25% bonus is applied to the men power BEFORE any other modifiers are added, that is why the 530 men are effectively counted as 662(662,5 to be correct). The 20% bonus is the one for not firing this turn or the previous phase, so overall I see no mistake.


Geoff McCarty wrote:
A column of 530 men firing at range 1 with an inexplicable firepower rating.
530 x 5 (musket FE range 1) x 0.33 (column fire malus) = 874.5
I hope I have demonstrated that this games most basic function of combat resolution is wholly broken. Unless I am in error in these tests it is obvious that there is some poorly handled code exchange within the executable which is malfunctioning. I am almost certain that the fire efficiency printed in the combat dialog is what gets passed to the combat value resolution generator due too the loss numbers in a multitude of tests. On the positive side the only 'working as designed' resolution was when I had a line fire on or melee another adjacent line except the stated *1.5 line fire efficiency. In no case of a modifier or range multiplier will the engine process as designed and stated in documentation.

Same as above, you likely moved the unit and that is why fire value is halved.

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 Post subject: Re: Combat Resolution
PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2018 9:24 pm 
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I'm in the process of reinstalling. Don't recall a *0.5 modifier for firing after moving or a *1.25 generally being applied before any modifiers in melee. 'Clear' weather in the getting started scenario I used. Frankly, I think my floating points error is more likely than what you maybe misremembering. Although its possible I'm the one who needs to RTFM again (despite having gone through it a few times in the last month).


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 Post subject: Re: Combat Resolution
PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2018 10:00 pm 
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Page 29 of the RBR manual under offensive fire, first bullet point.

"Units which fire after movement do so at half effectiveness."

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 Post subject: Re: Combat Resolution
PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2018 10:09 pm 
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I've forgotten alot of stuff I've read in the manual. Just tested without moving in Leipzig scn 000 and it had the correct fire efficiency value. I'm a mess..
Melee: "Non-British infantry units attacking in column get a 25% bonus to their attacking strength." Wewee, I'm wrong again.. Thought it was *1.2.
Although to not leave a loose end I'll test artillery again. Apparently due to it being a unit as well it won't be moved that turn to test its FE value.

Standard weather. Fire range 7 from 6 x 6lbs Saxon guns. Target shortened infantry line ~700 men. Hasn't moved.
6 (guns) * 80 (arty fire manpower) * 1 (range 7) = 480
300 reported. It's off still but, than I'm not exactly good at this math proofing stuff. What do you suppose I'm missing?
I see, it seems to be calculating with a hardcode artillery fire manpower of 50. Which is actually what I would use as the designer for parity between arms types.
I change the dennewitz.pdt arty manpower value to 160 and rerun the test. It still calculates with a 50 multiplier. Therefore at least my bumbling methods have discovered one possible bug. The artillery fire manpower multiplier parameter is not functioning correctly as reported. Which throws me back to just how the report dialog catches it's FE value and it maybe before or after parameter changes which could be applied correctly in the combat value calculation. Tested for that with larger casualties range one and it is definitely not using the arty fire manpower pdt value. Was way below possible LCV as set.


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 Post subject: Re: Combat Resolution
PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2018 11:23 pm 
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It is indeed 50 per gun for artillery fire. I just tested it with Austerlitz.
In the PDT of the getting started scenario there are following values:

Artillery Combat Values
Melee: 40 men Fire: 80 men

50 isn't listed anywhere so I guess the values is indeed hardcoded.
I wonder if that "Fire: 80 men" is each guns kill threshold, so if fire would kill 80 men it kills 1 gun on an artillery unit. Explains why killing artillery seems harder here than in the CW series.

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La Grande Armée - 3éme Corps d'Armée
"Vive la révolution, vive la france and vive L’Empereur!"


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 Post subject: Re: Combat Resolution
PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2018 11:27 pm 
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npd.pdf pg. 39: "Fire: when an artillery unit is fired at, this is the number of men per gun that is used to determine the unit’s losses."
You are correct. Another case of me misreading stuff. I should just stop...
I'd say that as far as my testing is concerned the game code has stood up to some scrutiny and beat me every time. It wasn't the game's fault that I'm a failure after all!


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 Post subject: Re: Combat Resolution
PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2018 12:06 am 
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I see, that explains why guns are so hard to kill in the Napie series. In the CW series each gun is rated as 25 men for a kill, so it's almost 4 times as easy to kill a gun in that series.

Seems to be time to check the program manual too to complete my understanding of the game. I had expects to find such valuable info in the normal user.pdf.
Thanks for posting it.

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La Grande Armée - 3éme Corps d'Armée
"Vive la révolution, vive la france and vive L’Empereur!"


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 Post subject: Re: Combat Resolution
PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2018 9:47 am 
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Geoff .. dont be too hard on yourself here ... by examining this and posting this thread here I was able to note that the artillery values for melee and fire are not standard in the games I built.

Here is a list (abbreviated) of the values:

Eckmuhl: 20 - melee, 80 - fire

Jena: 30 - melee, 80 - fire

Leipzig and later: 40 - melee, 80 - fire

The other games in the series:

Waterloo/NRC/BPW: 8 - melee, 50 - fire

Some history: The Eckmuhl playtest team and I felt that the original values of 8 and 50 (Talonsoft days) were too low. The values were set at 20 and 80 for Eckmuhl but some on the team felt that guns were being taken too easily. Thus by Jena the value for the melee was bumped up some. It was further increased for Austerlitz and all games that I helped produce from there on out.

So an 8 gun battery is worth 320 men in melee. This actually may be too high. I am thinking that a value of 25 might be more realistic. Each gun in a battery usually had 15-25 men serving the gun if you count the mounted element. An 8 gun battery thus would be worth 200 men in melee.

In Waterloo its worth 64 men. That seems too low .... On the other hand could 300 skirmishers take out that battery if its on its own?

As usual playing around with the numbers is not easy but my experience has been after 9 years of playing with the "40" value for melee that its too high.

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Scenario Designer for Napoleonic Battles series - John Tiller Software


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 Post subject: Re: Combat Resolution
PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2018 11:29 am 
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25 melee/gun is good. Could represent the artillerists and their attached escort infantry company (or dragoon troop) per battery. As well as the drivers and laborers of the 12 caisson wagons. Doesn't provide for melee enhancement of attacking the face of a firing battery though. While that is an assumed factor of meleeing infantry.

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 Post subject: Re: Combat Resolution
PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2018 2:03 pm 
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Yes 25 for melee sounds good.
But the kill value for artillery should be adjusted too, 50 I would say because:
A. It's the double of the CW value but as that series has 20 minutes turns a twice as high value for our 10 minute turns is just logical.
B. Artillery fire value is based on 50 men per gun so why would I need to kill more than 50 men to take out a gun.
C. Overall it should be easier to take out a gun here as it seems to have been a bigger target overall compared to the CW era. The stacking there is 50 per gun with a max hex stacking of 1000, adjusted to the stacking of the Napi games of 1800 this would be 90, but in the Napi series the guns count as 125 for stacking so they seem to be seen as needing more room and so are a bigger target.

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La Grande Armée - 3éme Corps d'Armée
"Vive la révolution, vive la france and vive L’Empereur!"


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