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PostPosted: Thu Jul 30, 2015 11:52 am 
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I wonder if we could achieve already something with adding as much uncertainty as possible to the game.
Just doing 2 CW games and in one one of my brigades routed, I wonder what the division commander would have done or more what he would have thought about seeing half a kilometer away a bunch of union regiments running back leaving there artillery behind.
I know what I thought and I saw their moral isn't as bad and that I can bring them forward again, but in real life the division commander might have pulled his whole division back.

For the Napi series I already suggest not using the "Optional Fire Results" & "Optional Melee Results" to add uncertainty.
If more values could be put under FoW like moral, if visibility could be lowered considerable, victory screen blocked, etc. I all is done to remove the almost god like certainty within the game I'm sure that player would drastically have to change their style of playing these games.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 31, 2015 12:34 pm 
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Mssrs.,

To expand further on Jim's point, every contemporary author emphasized the importance of resolving an attack with cold steel. If an attacking column stopped and got caught up in an exchange of fire, the attack invariably failed.

More importantly, the MORALE of the respective forces was generally the key to success, not the size of the forces per se. At its simplest, a Napoleonic attack was a colossal game of "chicken." If the attackers pushed ahead (e.g., did not pause to return fire, were disorganized by defensive fire, etc.) the defenders, in effect, needed to pass a morale check to see if they stood or ran away. If the defenders crumbled, the attack succeeded, if not, the attack generally failed. That's how a single battalion of Middle Guard could drive off an entire division of Landwehr Prussians at Plancenoit. As someone already pointed out, the key to British tactical defenses was that they would: 1) Hold their defensive fire until the attacker was at point blank range (25 - 30 yards); 2) Deliver one (1) volley of fire which generally shattered the attacker's front rank; 3) Immediately counter-charge the now disorganized attackers.

None of this can be simulated with the Tiller game engines.

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Paco

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 31, 2015 6:38 pm 
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Paco wrote:
More importantly, the MORALE of the respective forces was generally the key to success, not the size of the forces per se. At its simplest, a Napoleonic attack was a colossal game of "chicken." If the attackers pushed ahead (e.g., did not pause to return fire, were disorganized by defensive fire, etc.) the defenders, in effect, needed to pass a morale check to see if they stood or ran away. If the defenders crumbled, the attack succeeded, if not, the attack generally failed. That's how a single battalion of Middle Guard could drive off an entire division of Landwehr Prussians at Plancenoit. As someone already pointed out, the key to British tactical defenses was that they would: 1) Hold their defensive fire until the attacker was at point blank range (25 - 30 yards); 2) Deliver one (1) volley of fire which generally shattered the attacker's front rank; 3) Immediately counter-charge the now disorganized attackers.


From what I have been reading, this is more of a universal trait than just limited to the Napoleonic period, there are battles where entire lines ran off before contact was made. The individual combats were not resolved by actual casualties.

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None of this can be simulated with the Tiller game engines.


I don't think I would go that far, myself, as the entire point is about interpretation. A good example of this are from posts that are made from time to time where people are not getting the concept of losses not being literally dead, wounded, captured.

In the above example isn't it a defensive fire that disrupts the attacker in your defensive turn, then in your own attacking turn you forgo your own offensive fire and melee? I don't quite understand how that isn't being represented then?

Of course I guess there are some modifiers that I have been using in the Musket and Pike series engine that there isn't in NB -for example I could stick a unit with a negative melee 'bonus' (up to -90%) on a per unit basis in the OOB files which if you did that would largely render even a 1000 man unit impotent, which changes the overall impact of the engine.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 05, 2015 10:41 pm 
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Bill Peters wrote:
Sure, the 100 meter hex is overcrowded with the current system. But how do you ever win a melee within 15-30 mins using reduced stacking with a melee table that is all about strength and 2:1 odds?

H&R has it all wrong. In the Napoleonic period units would move up, assault and win melees. Yes, firepower did stop attackers. But the Napoleonic period is not about Seven Years War linear combat.

Go back over the battles and the time scales. Entire areas werre decided in less than an hour of meleeing and it had nothing to do with the units stopping to fire.

We have already found out that artillery was not able to sufficiently soften up a defender. That goes clear up to WW2! So it wasnt this concept of "They would bombard the defenders and then attack." Try telling that to Napoleon at Austerliz. His men fought against Russians in short combats in a back and forth style.

Anytime the attacker stopped to fire for the most part .. they LOST.

British would fire on the French columns as they came up and over the slope. Front of French column would fold. French would return fire (weak). British would counter charge with grenadier column. French would rout.

All of this talk aboout a fresh enemy holding is ridiculous too .. that you had to wear them down. its all about matchups. Not strength and fatigue is not always an indicator either.


I'm still in the process of figuring out how the detailed combat of all the arms was conducted o the battlefield, reading Muir "Tactics and the Experience of Battle in the Age of Napoleon" he mentioned:
"Although hand-to-hand fighting in the open was rare, bayonet charges were common: one side or the other almost always broke before contact, though, as at Maida, it could not always escape unscathed."
So I wonder if in general the combat values should be lowered so that melee results on lower casualties because with the rather high casualties on both sides when doing a melee it always looks like it it was a real hand to hand combat and not that one side broke away before actual combat.
Also if we could have combat bonuses/malus for every moral level so that it covers moral levels of B-D(well C being likely no bonus/malus) the moral could play a bigger part in the game.

Also about artillery, Muir gives the impression that it was at least attempted to soften the enemy in his position:
"An attack relied on the fire of skirmishers and artillery to prepare its way, and might well mean resorting to musketry if the enemy appeared resolute; while defenders who relied solely on fire - not supporting it with a ready counter-attack with the bayonet - might halt the enemy's attack only to produce a prolonged firefight."
And I guess Nappy intended something like that when forming his grand batteries, not that it was always done or that it alway worked.

Regarding the effect of artillery, Muir mentions:
"Soldiers of all nations agreed that 'The standing to be cannonaded, and having nothing else to do, is about the most unpleasant thing that can happen to soldiers in an engagement' (Ensign Leeke on Waterloo), or 'There is no possible suffering greater than to expect to be killed without being allowed to defend one's self' (Captain Coignfct on Eylau)."
That makes me wish we could have units taking more fatigue from artillery casualties compared to musketry casualties(maybe 2-4 instead of the 1-3 like it is now).

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 05, 2015 11:13 pm 
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Christian,
your last post is a point I was trying to make earlier---I think that the hard coded melee loses are too high (especially when combined with 3 to 1 and 4 to 1 odds for infantry, which happen with high stacking) for frontal attacks on non-disordered units.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 06, 2015 11:36 pm 
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The pity is I thought just like in the operational games we have the high/low combat values in the PDT but this is not the case for the Nappy series, anyhow I think these are general values that would effect every combat and so we couldn't adjust fire combat and melee combat separately.

But I think it could still be achieve it, if we would want to lower melee casaulties we could lower the Terrain Combat Modifiers and raise the fire values, so that you keep the casualty level for infantry fire & artillery fire but lower casualties for melee.

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