Napoleonic Wargame Club (NWC)

Guys - this is a POLL for us to take. I am thinking that the 10 min. move format needs a boost. Here is what I am suggesting:

1. The MP rate for Pikes is better than roads often leading to unrealistic advantges to forces that are using them vs. forces using the Road type terrain.

2. Suggestion: make the Road MP rate the same as the Pike MP rate.

Right now Infantry moves 8 hexes on a Pike vs. 5 hexes on a Road. Cavalry moves 10 hexes on a Pike vs. 7 hexes on a Road.

I think this is a "no-brainer" decision but I still would like to see folks take the poll for a month and also offer up your own thoughts.

I have thought of the effects of a "Blitzkrieg" with this too. I dont think it will affect the game and it will allow us to get forces to the front faster too. Also those guys that think the 10 Min. move format is too slow will see an improvement in this area.

The Waterloo/NRC format has Pike and Road using the same MP rate. The Infantry moves 10 hexes a turn and the cavalry 14. I like the concept of it being the same.

Thus the Pike will not lose any of its bonuses but the Road will not be as slow.

I would love to use fractions but those are not allowed for the MP costs. So much for that avenue of thought.

I have enabled "re-voting" in case you change your mind later and want to change your vote.

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Generalfeldmarschall Wilhelm Prinz Peters von Dennewitz

3. Husaren-Regiment, Reserve-Kavallerie, Preußischen Armee-Korps

Honarary CO of Garde-Ulanen Regiment, Garde-Grenadier Kavallerie

NWC Founding Member

For Club Games: I prefer the Single Phase mode of play. I prefer to play with the following options OFF:

MDF, VP4LC, NRO, MTD, CMR, PR, MIM, NDM, OMR (ver 4.07)

What is a pike compared to a road?

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Well the pike would be more traveled and probably better maintained but after you have an army march across any road during this period it got rather beat up especially during the wet weather.

I just cant see a Pike route giving a force this much of a march advantage.... if we could use fractions I wouldn't be having this discussion

The other answer would be to increase the amount of MPs, cost of terrain, such that the gap narrowed.

For instance: currently MP for infantry is 16 MPs. If I increase it to 32, increase the cost of a pike from 2 to 4 and increase the Road cost from 3 to 5 I get something closer to what I am looking for. Then the infantry moves 8 Pike hexes/turn or 6 Road hexes/turn. But again, did the Pike really give the units that much of a movement advantage over the Road?

My guess is that a Pike was a slightly better surface that could hold up in the weather better but really the Road allowed just as much traverse as the Pike.

And I dont want to mess with the MP allowances at this point.

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Generalfeldmarschall Wilhelm Prinz Peters von Dennewitz

3. Husaren-Regiment, Reserve-Kavallerie, Preußischen Armee-Korps

Honarary CO of Garde-Ulanen Regiment, Garde-Grenadier Kavallerie

NWC Founding Member

For Club Games: I prefer the Single Phase mode of play. I prefer to play with the following options OFF:

MDF, VP4LC, NRO, MTD, CMR, PR, MIM, NDM, OMR (ver 4.07)

Isn't the answer a question? What is the impact of a pike in the tactical situation that you are simulating? Did the armies use an increased rate of movement on pikes as opposed to roads in the context of your battle? Was it doctrinal or if not, was it due to environmental conditions?

It isn't really an easy answer - put me down for: 'it depends'.

What I am getting at is - did the armies use pikes in the context of the battle for a movement advantage and if not -was this because the army did not have that as a doctrine? Not all of them did - but I might be crossing periods.

LOL Steve ... dont make it too complicated. We are talking about the units using the same formations, same march style but on different surfaces/routes.

I have seen the condition of some of those pikes in the games when the weather gets bad and I dont see that much of a difference.

If the surface for a Road was hard packed dirt vs. some sort of corduroy surface that they put down then maybe there would be an increase but I think that a "chausee" as a pike would be considered probably could not give the user that big of a movement advantage.

And it might be that a few of those routes in our games were really "paths" too. I personally reserve the Path type for very rural settings. Not only are they meant for that but they are hard to see on the map. The default graphics for a path is hard to pick out in Rough terrain for instance.

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Generalfeldmarschall Wilhelm Prinz Peters von Dennewitz

3. Husaren-Regiment, Reserve-Kavallerie, Preußischen Armee-Korps

Honarary CO of Garde-Ulanen Regiment, Garde-Grenadier Kavallerie

NWC Founding Member

For Club Games: I prefer the Single Phase mode of play. I prefer to play with the following options OFF:

MDF, VP4LC, NRO, MTD, CMR, PR, MIM, NDM, OMR (ver 4.07)

63 views .. only 6 votes .... something doesn't add up ... now is your chance to let your vote count.

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Generalfeldmarschall Wilhelm Prinz Peters von Dennewitz

3. Husaren-Regiment, Reserve-Kavallerie, Preußischen Armee-Korps

Honarary CO of Garde-Ulanen Regiment, Garde-Grenadier Kavallerie

NWC Founding Member

For Club Games: I prefer the Single Phase mode of play. I prefer to play with the following options OFF:

MDF, VP4LC, NRO, MTD, CMR, PR, MIM, NDM, OMR (ver 4.07)

Seems to me that the difference depends on what the designer thought about the pike when he made the map and what that pike really was in reality.
If it was a cobbled road(like those Roman roads for example) I can imagine better performance, but if it was simply a road like others but more of a "main road" because it connect 2 bigger cities or was part of a commerce route so that it was overall wider with a harder surface and maybe also better maintained, then I doubt that there should be a large difference.

The difference we now have per turn based on 8 hexes on a Pike vs. 5 hexes on road will lead to a 1,8 kilometers in just one hour, even if we say that it's a perfectly paved road versus a bad road this difference seems too large.

I don't know what to vote for because I think it really depends on what the designer wants to represent with a pike or road(gee if seen games where roads were used to represent ship lanes), but I like the idea of a smaller difference like 1 hex per turn for infantry.
I'm not sure about Artillery, wagons and cavalry, would they benefit from a better aka paved road?
I think there are specially horseshoe for the really smooth surface that differ from those used for terrain, so with the wrong horseshoes there performance would maybe be eve worse on a better road.

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Not many have voted I suspect as they are unsure.

I voted No on the basis that if it ain't bust, don't mend it. Pikes in a campaign game are a focus for movement, just as they were historically I suspect. So you have an inkling of where an opponent is going. With roads included, an opponent could march off anywhere. I regard pikes as simply better quality surfaces and probably wider, and leave it at that, not worry about things like weather effects, increased usage v mud and horse droppings, width or what in fact they are made of.

Besides, my poor brain can't cope with too many alterations.

I vote "no".

Pikes are pikes and roads are roads.

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FM Sir 'Muddy' Jones, KG
2nd Life Guards, 1st Squadron, Household Cavalry
1st Duke of Uxbridge & Anglesey K.G.

I am waffling (I voted no)--Steve's point rings true about tactically in a one day battle it should not be a huge difference, as Christian also points out. But in longer scenarios, should make a difference and be a little faster...so....waffle waffle waffle..

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I don't think they should be the same but they should be closer than what they are.

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General de Brigade Paul Smith
Commanding 1/1/1er Corps d'Armée/La Grande Armée :frenchcool

The only way to do that would be to change the MP rates and then adjust the MP costs appropriately. Folks are already a bit upset at the three movement rates we have in the series: Eckmuhl/Wagram, NRC/Waterloo, my later titles.

We cant use fractions ...

I could try putting out some alternate versions for folks to try out. You interested in playing a game with me, Paul?

Something on the length of 30 turns probably would work.

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Generalfeldmarschall Wilhelm Prinz Peters von Dennewitz

3. Husaren-Regiment, Reserve-Kavallerie, Preußischen Armee-Korps

Honarary CO of Garde-Ulanen Regiment, Garde-Grenadier Kavallerie

NWC Founding Member

For Club Games: I prefer the Single Phase mode of play. I prefer to play with the following options OFF:

MDF, VP4LC, NRO, MTD, CMR, PR, MIM, NDM, OMR (ver 4.07)