Napoleonic Wargame Club

Waterloo Revisited
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Author:  David Guegan [ Tue Mar 08, 2016 11:00 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Waterloo Revisited

The Craan map is the best in my opinion.

And then there is the Ferraris map from 1777 that will give some good information about the topography. ... is_en.html

We already talked about it some years ago... viewtopic.php?p=58581

Author:  Mark Hornsby [ Tue Mar 08, 2016 6:14 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Waterloo Revisited

Obviously this is a lot of work to do and it seems to sum it up that morale is the most important and first thing to deal with then the start positions of the French with either 10 minute turns or both 10 and 15 minute turn scenarios and finally a selection of company sized scenarios. I personally would like the map reworked and colours changed to make the game more in line with later releases.

I don't know if Waterloo has ever been upgraded but surely this is the time to do it. What is John Tillers view on this would he sanction an upgrade because surely if he sanctions it, it's ok to change maps etc. At the end of the day it is an upgrade in a download like any other upgrade to improve on what is already there.

Bill I know this is a big undertaking for you if it was to be done but the question is can it. Also are there others out there who could help with certain parts?

Author:  Christian Hecht [ Tue Mar 08, 2016 11:43 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Waterloo Revisited

Maybe Rich can say what map formed the base of the in-game map.

@David Guegan
At what time is the Craan map set? After 1815?

@Mark Hornsby
I had worked a bit into Gilly, but if OOB(moral values) & map are to be adjusted it would be best to make these changes before the scenarios are formed out of it.
So if the adjustments for OOB & map are done I could do the Gilly scenario.

Author:  David Guegan [ Wed Mar 09, 2016 11:00 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Waterloo Revisited

His map is from 1816.

For more information about it...

and you can have a view of the map here too: ... 845%29.jpg

Author:  Christian Hecht [ Wed Mar 09, 2016 9:42 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Waterloo Revisited

Ah that map, I had linked to it but I'm glad there is a more accessible version out there, me link needed a crappy viewer.

There are also some versions out that show the map upside down with the British on the bottom, very strange view.

Author:  Bill Peters [ Thu Mar 10, 2016 4:27 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Waterloo Revisited

"Bill I know this is a big undertaking for you if it was to be done but the question is can it. Also are there others out there who could help with certain parts?"

Mark - changing the morale values is easy. Also coming up with a 10 min. version too. I would also add that I would have the cavalry using squadrons as well for a 2nd version.

I wont touch the map or graphics issues. That would be up to someone else at this point.

Christian - I did not realize that the leader ratio from nation to nation was so drastically different. When I did a similar thing (but not this drastic) to the French in Jena I knew it would rebound eventually. Too many leaders to move around.

Folks also ask "would you add in courier leaders to the game." I dont do that as the players could add those in if they like. Just add in a new org to the OB where it wont upset the existing org and add in the courier leaders as needed. It would be easier to use a courier procedure such as this:

1. Determine the total amount of turns the courier SHOULD arrive.
2. About halfway through the "ride" roll a d10 and check it on the "Courier Table" (which the players could make up). Things like "Courier takes wrong road" or "Courier gets captured" would make the game interesting.
3. For Courier captured the other player would be given the courier note which would be drawn up in a text file and saved for eventual outcome.

Couriers for team games would be good too. In my team game with Ludwig and Dave (Bonus 7 from Leipzig) I am commanding our left. In many ways I am acting independent of Ludwig in the center but it would be nice in my next team game to use couriers instead of email directions.

Author:  Mark Hornsby [ Thu Mar 10, 2016 4:48 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Waterloo Revisited

I like the idea of couriers that would add a whole new dimension to the game. I'm assuming that the actual French start positions and grand battery would be included if morale was lowered.

Author:  Christian Hecht [ Thu Mar 10, 2016 7:39 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Waterloo Revisited

Yea couriers sound very interesting and I guess it's really the best to let the players add them if they need them, in normal games these couriers could be used in a gamey way.

As I have never toyed around with the AI move feature, is this an all or nothing feature?
I mean could we set the AI to only move the couriers?
it could be interesting to let the courier move by AI, that way they are not directly controlled and would arrive where they were designated to arrive, in case the receiving officer moved it would again delay the arrival of any message as the courier has to search for that officer.

Author:  Bill Peters [ Fri Mar 11, 2016 12:22 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Waterloo Revisited

Christian - the AI does a poor job of routing units. It wont move them over a bridge for instance.

My courier format uses no leader units. You just write down what turn you send it out and the destination hex. Then halfway through its routing you do a die roll. If it is not intercepted or gets going down the wrong road then it will reach its destination. Isolated orgs trying to send out a courier would have an additional roll to make ....

Team games would be better with couriers ....

Author:  Guillaume Bertrand [ Tue Aug 16, 2016 7:03 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Waterloo Revisited

Have you seen the fantastic job that have been done here ?

there are everything to do a great map with all the road/wood/hill
and all the position for each hour for all units even picket

Author:  Christian Hecht [ Tue Aug 16, 2016 1:57 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Waterloo Revisited

I think that is the Ferraris map from 1777, so we surely have differences 1815.

Author:  Guillaume Bertrand [ Wed Aug 17, 2016 5:56 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Waterloo Revisited

Christian Hecht wrote:
I think that is the Ferraris map from 1777, so we surely have differences 1815.

yes it's . see reference.

I don't think there is much great difference in 38 years

Author:  Nicolò Fassan [ Mon Sep 12, 2016 9:14 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Waterloo Revisited

Hi all.

Sorry for late posting and poor English here, but there go my two cents to the discussion.

Napoleon didn't have any relevant tactical victory condition defined by losses or hexes to grab on to during the Hundred Days campaign in my humble opinion.
If one considers a Waterloo scenario as an evolved state of this initial game situation, he simply had none at all.
Subordinates had, but that's not the exclusive player role in any JTS games so far.

His goals were pure strategical.

Self-defending by:
* Balance the unfavourable odds against 7th coalition.
Gain time to train his strategic reserves (national guard).
Accessing eventual, even limited, francophone belgium manpower.
Actively trying to break up the ineluctable outcomes by looking for unexpected and unpredictable events (i.e. change of admin in England).
Instil back a minimal level of national pride.

* Increasing his political and personal prestige in order to keep his throne and make a patriotic war in French soil foreseeable (nobody in France wanted it).
Taking Brusseles, win engagements better if turning into precipitous and divisive rout, etc.
Something propaganda could write on basically.
The rear line were exposed to royalist uprising that could merge with any sort of social, economical or political discontent (which were widespread).
Conscription was a cause of enormous discontent too...
He couldn't spend too much time far from Paris due to the risk of coups and Chambers plottings.
There seemed to be no money to supply a long time war too?
One shall speculate Napoleon wasn't either a perfectly rational agent in 1815 in its subjectivity and view of situation (posterity, fatalism, desperation...).

The only operational translation of this picture: strike first/hard/fast by taking the central position.
He waited the very last moment while Austrian and Russian armies were approaching the minor theatre of operations.

He couldn't refuse battle from Wellington at Waterloo and rejoin Grouchy.
Armee du Nord was a fragile and politically heterogeneous army.
Nobody would consider it exceptional at manouvring in any sense to balance the price in the coming days.
Command and logistics were lacking under several aspects.
It'd mean to throw the momentum and confidence of Ligny by marching and countermarching.
Overlooking any terrain consideration, there was simply no time for seeking a more favourable battle outline.

Any pirric outcome was an operational draw and strategical defeat, at best.
He certainly needed to preserve an operational echelon to conduct a decisive persuit.
And Wellington had one at Hal already to cover his retreat...

He accepted exhaustion battle then.
Believing in his ability to choose the exact instant to commit his (untouched by Prussians) reserves.
A minor victory was better than a full defeat.
It was something propaganda and historians could debate at least.

He didn't know how badly Prussians run off the 16th.
It was all but mathematics to understand that from a battlefield the day after.
Willingness to fight and resilience of his enemies increased in later campaigns, but still intelligence was lacking as much as his resolution and general staff quality.
He hoped for the best and one couldn't expect anything different from Napoleon and fog of war.
He was defeated on 17th ultimately while assigning decorations at Ligny.

Waterloo is a clear example of battle entirely shaped by the operational level of war.
I see the large scale of JTS Waterloo's map providing attractive opportunities under this aspect.
The biggest weaknesses that makes the series somewhat unattractive in DX12-capable GPUs era, could turn into a convenience.
Turn based, abstracted mechanics on hex-map and simple graphics would avoid very much of the optimization concerns that tear to pieces such a design for SOWWL, Histwar, NTW, ... beforehand.

Very simplified and Lua-scripted (yet non-100%-deterministic) strategical layer environment to "drive" the goals of JTS simulation.
Operational mechanics on command and control, intelligence, perception systems, etc.
And a lot of AI programming where operational world is represented as graph (nodes=towns, edges=roads) and action space modelled at an higher level (march, screen, concentrate and so on).
The map also requires rework. The early stages suffers a bit from the absence of Thuin, Lobbes, etc. as instance, imho.
Worth asking guys if they're interested in building a GIS vector dataset of 1815 road network first...
Linearly-interpolated movements don't make much sense in their (amazing) work and would come in handy for videogaming maps as well.

Soldiers of the 5th, if anybody is able to persuade JT to start a venture on Napoleonic Campaigns along the lines of Wargame Design Studio in the next 50 years and need a C++ programmer, well... here I am! :frenchsalute:

Best regards.

P.S. I prefer Eckmuhl over Waterloo. :wink:

Author:  Bill Peters [ Mon Sep 12, 2016 9:51 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Waterloo Revisited

I pretty much do not have the time at present to complete Warren's dream. I know that if I do the morale values for the French would tumble and would be the same as what I use in the games I work on. Ligne would be "4" in most cases and Legere would be "5."

In the old BG Waterloo that is what we had and the French could and DID win the games. I know because I had my head handed to me as the Anglo-Allied! Others too.

I agree - no exit hexes but the Anglo-Allied VP locations would remain. If Wellington retreats from those position he has no defensible terrain to fall back on before Brussels and Antwerp. Napoleon's goal of eliminating one opponent (Anglo-Allied) and then turning on the other (Prussians) would be realized.

Author:  Christian Hecht [ Mon Sep 12, 2016 3:04 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Waterloo Revisited

Nicolò Fassan wrote:
Soldiers of the 5th, if anybody is able to persuade JT to start a venture on Napoleonic Campaigns along the lines of Wargame Design Studio in the next 50 years and need a C++ programmer, well... here I am! :frenchsalute:

And if that happens and testers are needed, here I am! :frenchvive1:

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