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| Changes to La Garde Imperiale https://wargame.ch/board/nwc/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=15589 |
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| Author: | John Corbin [ Tue Aug 09, 2016 5:32 am ] |
| Post subject: | Changes to La Garde Imperiale |
La Garde Imperiale will now will now have its own place in La Grande Armee's order of Battle. Members of La Garde, who previuosly held commands with in other corps, will now only hold guard commands. The work should be done shortly |
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| Author: | Christian Hecht [ Wed Aug 10, 2016 2:11 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Changes to La Garde Imperiale |
Interesting change, will the guard OOB mirror the guard of 1805? |
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| Author: | Mark Hornsby [ Wed Aug 10, 2016 10:59 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Changes to La Garde Imperiale |
Hi Christian I copied the OOB from the Guard list in the Grand Armee Quartier-General which if I am right by saying is the 1805 OOB but I did make some slight changes which was the inclusion of Brigade Commands throughout all 3 Guard Divisions and the inclusion of the Flanquers of La Jeune Garde included into the Brigade Tirailleurs. I hope it meets everyone's approval. |
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| Author: | Christian Hecht [ Thu Aug 11, 2016 12:43 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Changes to La Garde Imperiale |
Afaik the Guards was rather small in terms of units at Austerlitz: +++ Imperial Guard Guard Infantry: 1st Brigade Grenadiers à pied (2 bns.) 2nd Brigade Chasseurs à pied (2 bns.) 3rd Brigade Royal Italian Guard (Grenadiers à pied (1 bn.) & Chasseurs à pied (1 bn.)) Guard Cavalry: 1st Brigade Grenadiers à cheval (4 sqns.) 2nd Brigade Chasseurs à cheval (4 sqns.) Mameluks (1⁄2 sqn.) 3rd Brigade Gendarmes d'Elite (1 or 2 sqn.) Guard Artillery: 2 horse artillery batteries (each 8 gns) 1 Italian horse battery (8 guns) Marins(no clue of the size) +++ So overall not that much but beside the brigade CO positions you could/should also use a CO positions for infantry, cavalry, artillery & overall Imperial Guard CO, that gives 4 more positions. At the time of Austerlitz there was neither a middle nor a young guard. |
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| Author: | Mark Hornsby [ Thu Aug 11, 2016 3:17 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Changes to La Garde Imperiale |
My apologies Christian. Its the 1811 OOB. |
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| Author: | Christian Hecht [ Thu Aug 11, 2016 1:13 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Changes to La Garde Imperiale |
Well I would recommend to use the Imperial Guard of 1805, we have already enough empty spots and unless we remove some units it will be a lot more when using the Guards of 1811. The 1805 setup already allows 21 positions and besides that the rest of the army already mirrors the Austerlitz OOB so we should stick to it. Dropping the other Guard units is also no problem in my view as these were more or less just honor positions. What we miss currently is the Grenadier Division under Oudinot, I think that would make a nice addition and would bring more & different flavor into our OOB. That division would also be a nice thing between the normal army and the Imperial Guard. Nonehteless the divison shoudl be placed under the Imperial guard, Bill Petersdid that already in his Austerlitz OOB. Its composition was: Grenadier Division under GdD Oudinot/GD Duroc 1st Brigade under GdB Laplanche-Morthières 1st Grenadier (2 bat.) 2nd Grenadier (2 bat.) 2nd Brigade under GdB Dupas 3rd Grenadier (2 bat.) 4th Grenadier (2 bat.) 3rd Brigade under GdB Ruffin 5th Grenadier (2 bat.) Artillery: 1st Co/1st Regt Foot 4th Co/5th Regt Horse 2nd Co/2nd Genie Bn Taking brigade positions but ignoring the pioneer company we would have another 11 positions. And if you want to refine the OOB some more here some points: -The "22ème Régiment de Dragons" is missing in the "3ème Brigade" of "2ème Division de Dragons" of "La Réserve de Cavalerie". - In the "La Réserve de Cavalerie" there is a Light Cavalry Brigade under General of Brigade Édouard Jean Baptiste Milhaud missing, it had the 16ème Régiment de Chasseurs à Cheval & 22ème Régiment de Chasseurs à Cheval, can't find these regiments in our OOB anywhere. There are also other light cavalry units missing but those were detached from other corps to the reserve cavalry and are listed there already. |
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| Author: | SLudwig [ Thu Aug 11, 2016 2:35 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Changes to La Garde Imperiale |
I've thought for years now that the French should have a mixed OOB and use at least the Poles & Italians too.....plus your proposed 1805 Guard OOB takes out the Red Lancers and some other nice units..... |
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| Author: | Christian Hecht [ Thu Aug 11, 2016 3:15 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Changes to La Garde Imperiale |
If we would want some Italians there is alway the way to form the French Army of Italy for 1805 with some Italian units in it. Unfortunately the Polish troops are non-existent in 1805. The thing about a mixed OOB is, if we really would want it we would have to use the French OOB of 1812 pre-invasion of Russia. I think all Nations allied with France had troops in the GA at that time. The big "BUT" is that this might draw more people onto the French side. Correct me but I think we still outnumber the Allies although they cover so many nations. If the French now cover nations like Germany, Holland, etc. too, we draw candidates for the Allied side onto the French side, overall I think that would be a bad idea and would shift the unbalance even more. |
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| Author: | SLudwig [ Thu Aug 11, 2016 3:42 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Changes to La Garde Imperiale |
But there's nothing stopping you all either from using two different OOB's from the era. The epoch covers so many years and so many different interests. To deny adding in some of Napoleon's bravest and best allies, the Poles & Italians is to not only deny their part in the history of the conflict, but actually denies you all recruits. That at the end of the day should be our goal is how to recruit to new members. You can easily switch things around and have a small statement reflect the use of the two OOB's to reflect some of the greatest moments in the history of the LGA, whatever you want to say for it. Actually the LGA doesn't have the grandeur or the size it had so many years ago, the two sides are about on par these days, give or take a little. Of course some forces wouldn't be available for you all to use, the Dutch for example are in the AAA solidly. But I've fudged the OOB's a bit for the Coalition, mainly because some forces are still in a Corps status, technically....but also because folks were interested in certain forces. Michael Fredel was pleased when the Hessen-Kassel troops were added to the Prussians. Guys in the AAA had a field day when we introduced the slightly odd, but totally complete OOB for them and let folks pick their units. Many cited reasons of relatives or ancestors who fought with the units the picked or because it was by their hometown. There are a lot of reasons to use a flexible OOB. The goal at the end of the day should be to get folks into the club and playing games! |
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| Author: | John Corbin [ Thu Aug 11, 2016 4:39 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Changes to La Garde Imperiale |
I have been in the club for almos 15 years... Scott is right... This is not the same LGA i knew back then. Barring a large uptake in recruiting, it probably never will be. I do not want to large an OOB for the guard... Here is why... The guard, like the Marechal's baton, should be hard to acquire. A reward for exemplary service to either the LGA or the club as a whole. Current guard entrance requierements do not take service into consideration. I am looking at that to see if changes are required. As for a choice of OOB, I have toyed with the idea of dispensing with a fixed OOB in favor of allowing 9fficers to choose a unit from any period the Napoleonuc wars covers so long as it served under Napoleon or was allied to France during the wars. Thoughts? |
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| Author: | Mark Hornsby [ Thu Aug 11, 2016 6:01 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Changes to La Garde Imperiale |
Christian Your points are good but I have to say I agree with John that entry to the Guard has to be a lot harder so we don't need a large Guard Corps, but I personally think if we are looking at an OOB then I would say 1812 pre-invasion of Russia and that incorporates a lot of Italian and Polish units as well as Confederation of the Rhine units. Yes I know there were Prussian, Dutch, Portuguese, Austrian units but we can look at that and omit these units if need be. By including these units we are opening up an area of recruitment, I understand some may want us to follow an OOB to the historic accuracy but I don't think we have that luxury due to some nations changing sides many times throughout the period. My opinion is to change all Corps to the 1812 OOB, adding in the extra Corps and change the Guard to the 1812 which adds in a few more units. The Guard needs to have its entry requirements raised and certain other medals need their awarding requirements looking at also. You are right Christian and you make a lot of good points and if changes go ahead and with John's permission I'm sure we could work together to create a suitable OOB also John and Scott are right in their statements and we need new blood in the club and this is a good way of doing it. Okay the club may not be what it was in its early days but we can have a really good go of coming close to it. I think more comments are needed before a road is decided on. |
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| Author: | Jeff Bardon [ Sun Aug 14, 2016 11:47 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Changes to La Garde Imperiale |
The Garde OOB has changed many times over the years within the LGA. At one time, it was based on 1812 and included units like the Vistula Legion, the Velites di Torino, the Lithuanian Tatars and others. With all the variations, there is certainly the opportunity for a broader range, and the Allied units add a lot of color. |
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| Author: | Christian Hecht [ Sun Aug 14, 2016 12:14 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Changes to La Garde Imperiale |
Well I'm bit nitpicking here, usually in all my strategy games I aim for a perfect OOB, that's why I wanted to make the 1805 closer and closer to history. Now if we really want to broaden the range to interest more people it is obviously to use the 1812 pre-invasion OOB, I doubt there is any other OOB for the French with this broad range. We could select certain parts of that OOB and "activate" them so we don't start with the complete OOB as that would leave many more empty positions than we already have with the 1805 OOB. But it will be problematic to remove single nationality units that we don't want to cover, I guess Prussian units are off limits an what means that a Prussian unit here and there has to be removed. A first overview: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Order_of_ ... _of_Russia |
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| Author: | SLudwig [ Sun Aug 14, 2016 1:08 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Changes to La Garde Imperiale |
What I had suggested to Mark via email was to convert the IV and V Corps' to the Italians and Poles and then use the VI, VII or VIII to place a variety of German Rhine units there that are not in the I & III Corps. The I & III would stay French and they have some Rhine groupings too. The Swiss would be a nice addition to the IV. But you're correct the Prussian, Austrian and some other smaller groups would have to be omitted. |
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| Author: | Christian Hecht [ Sun Aug 14, 2016 2:14 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Changes to La Garde Imperiale |
Can you say what these "smaller groups" are? Dutch & Portuguese? I hope not the Germans from Rhine Confederation as they seem to be even bigger than what the Poles contributed to the Russian invasion. |
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