Napoleonic Wargame Club
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Leipzig and 1814 Update Note
http://wargame.ch/board/nwc/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=15745
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Author:  Bill Peters [ Wed Mar 08, 2017 6:16 pm ]
Post subject:  Leipzig and 1814 Update Note

I just handed off update files to Rich H. for the next round of updates. Not sure when that will happen.

A customer had reported that the "X" series of scenarios for Campaign Leipzig that deal with 15 min. moves and cavalry regiments were using the 10 min. MP costs/allowances. This was fixed.

What I was not able to get to was standardizing the artillery ranges and values for Leipzig and 1814 to coincide with Bautzen. This will have to come later as I dont want to make errors when I do this and right now I am too busy trying to launch new game work and continuing work on a very large map for the next JTS game I am working on.

In the future I hope to get that all corrected. For now: live with 6lb guns firing at 11 hexes ....

Author:  Colin Knox [ Wed Mar 08, 2017 10:30 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Leipzig and 1814 Update Note

Hey Bill
I think its better they can fire 11. The French are at a massive arty disadvantage in many scenarios so its more balanced.
Just my 5 cents.

Regards
Colin

Author:  Jim Pfleck [ Thu Mar 09, 2017 10:01 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Leipzig and 1814 Update Note

I like the 11 too. If the guns are basically useless beyond cavalry charge range, there is often little incentive to keep them I line at all...

Author:  Bill Peters [ Thu Mar 09, 2017 11:26 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Leipzig and 1814 Update Note

That would leave Bautzen to update. On the other hand Paco and I discussed effective ranges and the 6lb guns were definitely not effective out to that range.

Either way I want all three of the 1813-14 titles to be in agreement. Whether they differ with Marengo is neither here nor there ....

Want to check out the other four titles that came before eventually too.

Most agree that it was a mistake to go to the 6lber and that the 8lb gun was the better weapon. Thus to me a 6lb gun is merely a support weapon and not one of artillery dominance.

Jim - I am not following you on the cavalry charge range. Cavalry must be 5 hexes from their target. Definitely still in range from a 6lb gun that can fire 9 hexes away.

The "1" value of a 6lb gun at 11 hexes is not going to stop a cavalry stack or even disorder it more than likely.

I will review this when I get time. Right now I am looking at my course in life. I have to decide whether I will stay on to help my great aunt or go "adrift" and move on putting everything into storage. Am not sure with my stroke issues that the work here with my aunt is still a "go" yet. Also have hernia surgery looming and oh it would be nice to get my teeth cleaned ...

Author:  Colin Knox [ Thu Mar 09, 2017 7:27 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Leipzig and 1814 Update Note

Hey Bill
Your probably right from a technical perspective, a 6pdr had a limited range. However, the French artillery was pretty effective during this period and helped compensate for their lack of cavalry, despite their pre-ponderance of 6pdrs. And the Russian artillery, whilst a strength, was possibly not as effective as it is in the games. Perhaps it was French training, ammunition/powder quality, leadership or a combination of factors that offset the mass of low powered 6pdrs.

On balance perhaps when you lower the range you could compensate by making the French gunners A grade and the Russians B. This could reflect the performance of the French artillery in the period, despite its large number of lower calibre guns. Also lower calibre often meant a higher rate of fire. This used to be reflected rather inaccurately in the horse batteries of the Waterloo game. But perhaps a smallish increase in the fire damage of a French 6pdr at around 1-5 hexes. These two updates would bring better game balance without losing historical context. Making the French artillery at least a little feared as it was in the period. I don't think this applies to the Confederation of the Rhine troops.

Just my thoughts.

Regards
Colin

Author:  Christian Hecht [ Thu Mar 09, 2017 9:56 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Leipzig and 1814 Update Note

Not sure what the values in Bautzen are but a fire value of 1 at 11 hexes does not look too much for a 6pdr. Max range was about 1500 meters but effective below 1000 meters so having 1 at 11 hexes or 1100 meters seems OK, you can't do much damage with that fire value even when firring several 6pdr batteries at a single target at that range.

BTW can incremental values be used in the Napy series?
I see those in the CW series with some long range artillery using values like 0.5 or even 0.25.

Author:  Bill Peters [ Fri Mar 10, 2017 12:06 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Leipzig and 1814 Update Note

No, no fractions possible for fire values or movement costs either.

Author:  Bill Peters [ Fri Mar 10, 2017 12:08 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Leipzig and 1814 Update Note

Colin Knox wrote:
Hey Bill
Your probably right from a technical perspective, a 6pdr had a limited range. However, the French artillery was pretty effective during this period and helped compensate for their lack of cavalry, despite their pre-ponderance of 6pdrs. And the Russian artillery, whilst a strength, was possibly not as effective as it is in the games. Perhaps it was French training, ammunition/powder quality, leadership or a combination of factors that offset the mass of low powered 6pdrs.

On balance perhaps when you lower the range you could compensate by making the French gunners A grade and the Russians B. This could reflect the performance of the French artillery in the period, despite its large number of lower calibre guns. Also lower calibre often meant a higher rate of fire. This used to be reflected rather inaccurately in the horse batteries of the Waterloo game. But perhaps a smallish increase in the fire damage of a French 6pdr at around 1-5 hexes. These two updates would bring better game balance without losing historical context. Making the French artillery at least a little feared as it was in the period. I don't think this applies to the Confederation of the Rhine troops.

Just my thoughts.

Regards
Colin


Colin - Grade A ... that means "Heavy" guns ... does nothing to the firepower. I dont even think that high morale (as in Old Guard artillery) would boost the firepower either. As far as I know its all in the fire value for each weapon type.

If I am wrong someone please correct me.

Author:  Christian Hecht [ Fri Mar 10, 2017 10:46 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Leipzig and 1814 Update Note

AFAIk Quality A gives +20% to the fire value.
Just tested it and the fire report for an A quality artillery shows:
Fire = 2400 (mod 20)

while a B quality artillery shows:
Fire = 2400

Author:  Colin Knox [ Fri Mar 10, 2017 1:03 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Leipzig and 1814 Update Note

Yes Christian is correct according to the results on screen in tests, my experience and the manuals, A grade units receive a 20% bonus to fire and melee. Artillery is included. But hey sometimes all of that can be wrong :mrgreen:

Author:  Colin Knox [ Fri Mar 10, 2017 2:50 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Leipzig and 1814 Update Note

Also evidently in 1824 the French conducted a bunch of comparative tests and found the 6pdr was more effective than both the 12pdr and 8pdr at around 600m due to the rate of fire, its caissons could also carry much more ammo further supporting this. Napoleon was a gunner and if the 6pdr was as weak as the games show it to be I am sure he would not have changed from the old 8's. The 6 was better at the optimal battlefield range even than the 12pdr according to those tests.

Author:  Bill Peters [ Sat Mar 11, 2017 12:43 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Leipzig and 1814 Update Note

Well that would be interesting to study but the series is pretty much fixed on size being more lethal.

Would be interested to hear what Paco has to say about that. From all I have EVER heard, Colin, the horse artillery of France wanted their 8lb guns back. They felt they got better results with them.

Author:  Bill Peters [ Sat Mar 11, 2017 12:45 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Leipzig and 1814 Update Note

Heard from Rich H. yesterday ..... updates for this series are still some ways off. Other games will come first and probably wont see updates for the games done until after the next Nap game comes out. When is that? Cant say. Just figure that my game is very mature but artwork is in development and will take some time to finish.

Author:  Christian Hecht [ Sat Mar 11, 2017 4:24 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Leipzig and 1814 Update Note

It would indeed be interesting to study the artillery. It's obviously damned complicated to consider in all factors(from the gun itself over ammunition to tactics) and than reducing them to a specific fire value for a certain range within our usual 10 minute turns.

I would be interested if, taking Leipzig as example, the other artillery should get fire values that depicts the switch from canister to shot just like the howitzer depicts the switch to shells.
The howitzer have a raise in fire value at 800 meters I suppose because of the use of s at that range.

Now I wonder if the same could be seen with normal artillery when it switches from canister to shot.
Canister is deadly at short ranges but losses effectives very quick, shot isn't that deadly at short ranges but if rolled it keeps effectiveness up to "high" ranges like 1000 meters depending on the caliber.
I just wonder if the switch between canister & shot was always so "smooth" that we see the fire value curve we currently have.

Author:  Colin Knox [ Sun Mar 12, 2017 9:28 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Leipzig and 1814 Update Note

Hey Bill
I found this online, has some interesting info on the subject you might find useful. I am not complaining at all just was always wondering about this.

Napoleon's artillery: System AnXI 1803-1827
By Paul Lindsay Dawson

https://books.google.co.nz/books?id=2Mp0BQAAQBAJ&lpg=PA23&dq=6%20pdr%20vs%208%20pdr%20tests%20napoleon&pg=PA23#v=onepage&q=6%20pdr%20vs%208%20pdr%20tests%20napoleon&f=false

regards
Colin

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