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Would you purchase the game described below?
Poll runs till Wed May 30, 2018 4:58 pm
Yes 96%  96%  [ 27 ]
No 4%  4%  [ 1 ]
Undecided 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Total votes : 28
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 Post subject: Napoleonic Game Poll - Campaign 1815: Napoleon's Return
PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2018 4:58 pm 
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I would like to hear from the community on whether you are interested in a game on the entire 1815 campaign to include the Belgian campaign which culminated in the Battle of Waterloo. This game would include a brand new map of Belgium to include areas to the east and west of the existing Belgium map found in Campaign Waterloo. It also would include maps of the following areas:

Paris
Brie Plateau and other maps from the 1814 game (to include the La Souffel map)
Frontier areas along the Rhine (some of the maps will be included in the forthcoming RBR game due out soon)

Much more than "Rehashed Campaign Waterloo" this game would include artwork and forces for the following nations:

Those found in the Waterloo Campaign
Austria
Bavaria and the rest of the German states along the Rhine
Saxony
Russia

I attach an image of the Fleurus map from the forthcoming RBR game as an idea of the detail of the map for Belgium.

Image

My goal is to see over 100 members vote Yes. I also will be posting a similar poll over on The Blitz forum. Please do NOT vote on that poll if you are member there. I want the votes to be individual tallies and not just enthusiastic support or a duplicate viewpoint.

I would like to get a total of 300 people vote Yes for this project. I think then I could get the support from John Tiller to create the game.

Campaign Waterloo came out over 15 years ago and I believe that the community would enthusiastically support this new title.

Take the poll to let me know if I am right or wrong. If you feel ripped off that another game would come out on the same topic say so in a response. On the other hand if you feel that a deluxe treatment of the 1815 campaign is long overdue speak up!

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 Post subject: Re: Napoleonic Game Poll - Campaign 1815: Napoleon's Return
PostPosted: Fri Mar 02, 2018 12:57 am 
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I think that the new Waterloo game sounds most interesting and I would definitely buy a copy. I am particularly interested in the "What if" Napoleon had opted for a defensive campaign within France, and making use of the frontier fortresses.

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 Post subject: Re: Napoleonic Game Poll - Campaign 1815: Napoleon's Return
PostPosted: Mon Mar 05, 2018 1:29 pm 
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It would be really great to get the old Waterloo game that has so many shortcomings replaced, not only with something that recreates the Waterloo campaign but goes further beyond this.

What would be the story line?
Napoleon wins Waterloo and this gives him time & troops to battle the Austrians & Russians?

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 Post subject: Re: Napoleonic Game Poll - Campaign 1815: Napoleon's Return
PostPosted: Tue Mar 06, 2018 10:59 am 
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Yes, you could see something like that OR Napoleon defeats the Prussians and drives Wellington back. Austrians and German States plus Anglo-Allies fight on three lines .... with the Anglo-Allies coming through the Low Countries (along with Prussian reinforcements) and the Austrians and German allies approaching the Rhine from two directions.

A similar campaign to the one in 1814 could occur as well - a late Summer/early Fall campaign.

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http://friendsofwargaming.com/support-bill-peters.html


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 Post subject: Re: Napoleonic Game Poll - Campaign 1815: Napoleon's Return
PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2018 1:23 pm 
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I would definitely buy.

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 Post subject: Re: Napoleonic Game Poll - Campaign 1815: Napoleon's Return
PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2018 1:52 pm 
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Indeed, makes one wonder who was so far in lala land that he voted no.

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 Post subject: Re: Napoleonic Game Poll - Campaign 1815: Napoleon's Return
PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2018 2:22 pm 
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Excellent concept, what's not to like. I would certainly purchase.

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 Post subject: Re: Napoleonic Game Poll - Campaign 1815: Napoleon's Return
PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2018 6:15 pm 
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Guys - additional info:

I would also form a research group for each Nation/Group. So for the Anglo army I would find a British/UK native that would help me out (or expert on the British army). Hanoverians - someone that knows them well. Same for the Prussians, French and so on.

Just so its not a one sided viewpoint/research effort.

Paco usually works with me on the French army but I would also add in a couple of other helpers too.

I truly miss Warren Bajan's knowledge of the German armies/language. However, others have helped me out too.

Just adding this in in case someone was thinking that I was just going to pick up a couple of books I own and use those as my sole source for the armies.

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Husaren-Regiment Hessen-Kassel
Infanterie-Brigade Hessen-Kassel
Königlich-Preußisches Armee-Korps
Scenario Designer for Napoleonic Battles series - John Tiller Software
http://friendsofwargaming.com/support-bill-peters.html


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 Post subject: Re: Napoleonic Game Poll - Campaign 1815: Napoleon's Return
PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2018 5:36 pm 
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To form a multi-national team sounds very good.
As for my part, I could surely add something for the Germans in general and I know a guy on another board that could maybe add something for the Austrians, afaik he even studied history.

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 Post subject: Re: Napoleonic Game Poll - Campaign 1815: Napoleon's Return
PostPosted: Sat Mar 10, 2018 10:46 am 
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Christian Hecht wrote:
Indeed, makes one wonder who was so far in lala land that he voted no.


Please, everyone is entitled to their opinion and if members are going to be making comments like this then some folks will feel hesitant to vote like they think.

Let the poll results speak for itself. If you support the idea then great! If someone opposes it and wants to post a comment here we need to respect what they say.

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Husaren-Regiment Hessen-Kassel
Infanterie-Brigade Hessen-Kassel
Königlich-Preußisches Armee-Korps
Scenario Designer for Napoleonic Battles series - John Tiller Software
http://friendsofwargaming.com/support-bill-peters.html


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 Post subject: Re: Napoleonic Game Poll - Campaign 1815: Napoleon's Return
PostPosted: Sat Mar 10, 2018 11:08 am 
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Sure, but as there isn't any plausible reason to vote no, because the old Waterloo as to be reworked without a doubt, it would have been nice to know why someone declined this project that does not only aim to rework but to expand on the possibilities of 1815.
I can only think that he wasn't aware how troublesome the old Waterloo is. Bill maybe you should tell a bit more about the errors of the old Waterloo, I think you mentioned some points on the Blitz board, that should give anyone a better base to vote on.

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 Post subject: Re: Napoleonic Game Poll - Campaign 1815: Napoleon's Return
PostPosted: Sat Mar 10, 2018 6:33 pm 
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People that want to see how I would grade the Prussian and French armies should look at the OB I did for the Campaign 1814 game for the "Maneuver on the Marne" scenario. In there I set the French morale for the Ligne troops at 4 morale and the Legere troops at 5 morale where I think they should be and where the old Battleground Waterloo had them.

When I increased the French morale grades for the Campaign Jena game there was a boycott of the update. No such boycott exists for the Waterloo game because I think the French members see the battle as unwinnable otherwise. However, I want to note that Paco and many others WON as the French in Battleground Waterloo. They didnt need Ligne infantry possessing a 6 morale value to beat the Allies. The Allies have their own morale shortcomings.

The French also KNOW that Blucher is showing up. Thus they can attack Wellington with every unit they possess and defeat him long before the brunt of Blucher's army shows up. Only the really great Allied commanders in the club (not me) can hold off the French in Campaign Waterloo.

Warren Bajan looked to correct the OBs of the Campaign Waterloo game. I forget how he graded the morale ratings. I think he was looking more to correcting the Prussian army and put the units in "Treffe" instead of the brigade format that is in Campaign Waterloo which was also in Battleground Waterloo that being that there would be three Prussian infantry regiments in a brigade and a Jager or Schutzen company (or two). The battalions of the regiments as you know were mixed in with each other. The regiments were not retained together for the most part.

Thus if you look at the OB I have for the Maneuver on the Marne scenario in the 1814 game you will see Dr. Stephen Summerfield's hand in the Prussian organization for the "Treffe" as I got it from his books that had the 1815 OB for that army. The OBs are in his first volume on the Prussian army I believe.

The point of this poll is to get response from people on whether more than an overhaul of the Campaign Waterloo game is in order - as that could be accomplished by just doing a "Mod" like Warren was working on before he passed. What I am after is to add in a substantial amount of possibilities for more than just "The Hundred Days Campaign" culminating in Belgium. Certain "The Battle of Waterloo" will be a huge feature of the game but more than that it will have other possibilities as well.

To sit here and "nitpick" CW is a waste of time. Everyone has their own opinion of the 15 min. vs. 10 minute system. The squadrons vs. the regiments. etc. Whether the OB is accurate or not. For that matter has anyone ever been happy with a Battle of Waterloo OB? Its the manpower and morale values I think that usually are brought up for debate. If I were to enter into this campaign arena I would make sure I had delegates from each of the national backgrounds represented.

But the main thing I am trying to say is: please don't judge someone's choice of a vote. That is the key to having a free and open debate on something. Let people speak freely and lets not browbeat someone because they vote no or are undecided.

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Infanterie-Brigade Hessen-Kassel
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 Post subject: Re: Napoleonic Game Poll - Campaign 1815: Napoleon's Return
PostPosted: Sat Mar 10, 2018 7:39 pm 
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Bill Peters wrote:
Warren Bajan looked to correct the OBs of the Campaign Waterloo game. I forget how he graded the morale ratings. I think he was looking more to correcting the Prussian army and put the units in "Treffe" instead of the brigade format that is in Campaign Waterloo which was also in Battleground Waterloo that being that there would be three Prussian infantry regiments in a brigade and a Jager or Schutzen company (or two). The battalions of the regiments as you know were mixed in with each other. The regiments were not retained together for the most part.

Thus if you look at the OB I have for the Maneuver on the Marne scenario in the 1814 game you will see Dr. Stephen Summerfield's hand in the Prussian organization for the "Treffe" as I got it from his books that had the 1815 OB for that army. The OBs are in his first volume on the Prussian army I believe.

Would be very interesting to see this, it's easily misunderstood that the Prussian Infantry Brigade of that time was not the equivalent to a French infantry brigade but rather a mixed division. In 1815 usually with 3 infantry regiments, various Jäger detachments, 1-2 sq. cavalry & 1-2 batteries of artillery. Often in OOBS you won't see any organization below these Prussian Brigades unlike the French who had their brigades in their divisions
AFAIk its called "Treffen".

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 Post subject: Re: Napoleonic Game Poll - Campaign 1815: Napoleon's Return
PostPosted: Sat Mar 10, 2018 9:35 pm 
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I abstained from voting; I like the idea of an expanded campaign - Russians, Austrians, options... always a good thing.

Seriously though, one vote 'no' -is there any reason to impugn that? I don't think so - and proportionately speaking would it even matter, assuming that publicly campaigning for a project is even a valid way to float a project?

Anyway - it sounds like something that I would like to play.

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 Post subject: Re: Napoleonic Game Poll - Campaign 1815: Napoleon's Return
PostPosted: Sat Mar 10, 2018 10:21 pm 
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Example Prussian brigade from the I Korps from the 1815 Campaign OB file I built for the Campaign 1814 game for the "Maneuver on the Marne" scenarios:

1 Brig/1AK (Division, 7 204 infantry, 578 cavalry, 16 guns)

GM Steinmetz (E C)
1 Treffe/1B/1AK (Brigade, 2 186 infantry)

Maj Blücher (E C)
F/2 Brandenburg IR12 (Infantry, 787 men, B)
F/IR24 "12.RIR" (Infantry, 765 men, B)
3/Sil. Schützen (Infantry, 140 men, B)
4/Sil. Schützen (Infantry, 141 men, B)
Frewillige Jager (Infantry, 114 men, D)
Frewillige Jager (Infantry, 121 men, D)
Frewillige Jager (Infantry, 118 men, D)

2 Treffe/1B/1AK (Brigade, 2 811 infantry, 8 guns)

Ob Hoffman (E C)
1/IR24 "12.RIR" (Infantry, 763 men, C)
2/IR24 "12.RIR" (Infantry, 761 men, C)
1/1 Westphalian LWIR (Infantry, 644 men, D)
2/1 Westphalian LWIR (Infantry, 643 men, D)
6lb Foot #7 (Artillery, 8 guns, B)

3 Treffe/1B/1AK (Brigade, 2 207 infantry, 578 cavalry, 8 guns)

Ob Kleist (E C)
1/2 Brandenburg IR12 (Infantry, 783 men, B)
2/2 Brandenburg IR12 (Infantry, 786 men, B)
3/1 Westphalian LWIR (Infantry, 638 men, D)
1/1 Silesian HR4 (Cavalry, 145 men, B)
2/1 Silesian HR4 (Cavalry, 143 men, B)
3/1 Silesian HR4 (Cavalry, 146 men, B)
4/1 Silesian HR4 (Cavalry, 144 men, B)
6lb Horse #7 (Artillery, 8 guns, B)

Wagon/1B/1AK (Supply 300)

Christian - if you say its Treffen I believe you. I saw Treffe too somewhere. Its easy to fix in the OB file using the Replace command.

So note how the "Treffen" are mixed groups of battalions from various regiments. That is how the Prussians organized their brigades. The Landwehr served alongside veteran battalions. Helped to steady them. Also anywhere from 2-4 squadrons of cavalry would be included in the 3rd "Treffen."

Dr. Stephen Summerfield has nice diagrams in his books on the Prussian army of how the "Treffen" deployed for combat. Usually the skirmishers would be up front - entire battalions would break down leaving one company as the "cadre" for the rest to rally to OR they would form line and send out a few companies of skirmishers. It was a very versatile formation with two lines of reserves behind them and cavalry on the flanks with 1-2 batteries in support and often the corps cavalry not too far away.

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Infanterie-Brigade Hessen-Kassel
Königlich-Preußisches Armee-Korps
Scenario Designer for Napoleonic Battles series - John Tiller Software
http://friendsofwargaming.com/support-bill-peters.html


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