Napoleonic Wargame Club

Maneuver games are no more
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Author:  Jim Pfleck [ Fri Aug 31, 2018 10:15 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Maneuver games are no more

So I am one of the people helping to run the club and sometimes I have a lot of time to give and sometimes (like now), very little.

The backbone of the club is people playing games--we still have a lot of games played (way more than the Blitz, where I am also active). What you see a lot of is people have 2 or 3 opponents they play against over and over again. This leads to less forum traffic becuase people do not post for games very often--maybe 1 out of every 5 or 6 games, at most, is the result of a post on the forum.

I still see a role for armies--I am currently pushing to reinstate the training requirement for new players, since their first opponents often end up "training" them anyways. We have enough players around who can do that-we have at least 5 or people who will do training when asked and are good at it, if not more. The armies help with this and playing the same side a lot when you first start playing is a good way to learn the system.

Also, we have done army tournaments in the past and when my schedule frees up I am going to organize another one.

The club has two aspects--one is matchmaking, and I hear people's point here about taking away maneuvers makes us more like the Blitz. But the other part of the club is that we have the army system that provides support on learning the games, finding opponents at your skill levels, and other, similar things.

The club is what we as members make it. So if you want the armies to have more meaning, give them more meaning-organize a division vs division challenge. Volunteer to be a trainer, right after action reports about your games and put them in the army forum. Organize a multiplayer game. I can help any of you turn these ideas into action, just let me know..

Author:  Gary McClellan [ Fri Aug 31, 2018 10:49 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Maneuver games are no more

(removed, as John did ask that we end the discussion)

Author:  Clint Matthews [ Fri Aug 31, 2018 12:41 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Maneuver games are no more

no offense here........but

The decision has been made by those in charge of this club.

Mr Corbin has asked in a previous post that we all just please move on.

Every response or comment is going to elicit a response by one side or the other.

I for one, wanted to leave this decision in the hands of people who actually manage this club.

Whatever their decision would have been, I would have supported it 100% without any additional comment from me.

Author:  Gary McClellan [ Fri Aug 31, 2018 12:47 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Maneuver games are no more

Fair point, and I'm removing my post. I ask that you remove your quoting of my post, for the same reason.

Author:  Christian Hecht [ Fri Aug 31, 2018 12:57 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Maneuver games are no more

If playing games is so important fights shouldn't have been degraded. One can argue that maneuvers now mean more but they surely were always a smaller percentage of the games compared to the fights, that fights now mean less won't change the number of overall games played but lower it.
The rivalry in comparison surely raised the number of played games as there was a reason for one to chose one and not the other side, all games work like that and if any designer would come to the point of making sides irrelevant the game would just decline, so will the club. For a French battling the royal forces is just his life task, but no it's no more...

And it's not only that, I had the "pleasure" of playing maneuvers against Union officers who had no clue how to handle the rebels and they played just awfully and it was a waste of time.
If one argues the number of opponents is now larger because maneuvers mean more one must acknowledge that the quality of gaming will decline with French now playing allies you first will have people not used to the way the various allied armies work, that will be now pleasure to fight Mack in such games over and over again and soon people will cry for an opponent who knows his own troops.
And even if the point comes that they learned how to play the other side, what's the gain of it having an opponent who knows the French & allied side? It's like having a French player in 1940 that is well aware of the capabilities, doctrine, tactical procedures, etc. of the Germans, he won't play like a French general in 1940(who should play like a French general in 1914) but will act very differently. Ever played poker versus someone who knew you cards? Fun isn't it? Only if you are into fun of that kind... :roll:

Now, trying to put more meaning into the armies when the main point of having them just vanished is a futile task.
Learning the games
You surely can learn from your side, but will finally learn much more if playing regularly against members from the other side. They know there side and you learn your side. This way both keep their individual from their side influenced style of gaming. But now not anymore.

Finding opponents at your skill levels
Works much better at the Blitz with eh ELO value giving a clue how the one is rated against you. Not sure how the own side in here in any way can help in that direction. Putting maneuvers into the same OBD point range surely doesn't not give more clue about the skill level of one when that one only fights his own side.

Put more meaning into armies
- Tournaments are useless for this as these always force considerable concessions regarding rules etc. and most people are not up to it. That means doing div vs div won't likely result in a tournament that is really going anywhere with these low member numbers. Only way is an open tournament to somehow get all members a way to get into it and to make them fight for their side. But even then you are down again to make a lot concessions regarding rules what doesn't suit many in here. How was the last tournaments participation?
Fact is that the Napi engine is just so much more demanding but lacks the necessary optional rules to really play out in a tournament.

- Training is also meaningless with maneuvers no more, as said battling the other side is the best training as it keeps the characteristics of both sides alive. Putting more meaning into it goes only if some acknowledgment is instated like the ACWGC does it.

- AARs are nice but it's already seldom at the ACWGC, these are surely interesting but if that really put any meaning into one side is doubtful.

In the end already to many here cook their own soup, there are people basically putting there own version of the games into closed circles into playing and trying to draw clueless people into it just to find new victims, and at some point there is no community but only small groups left and that is the point were we have to close the kitchen. Bigger clubs than ours have failed(Panzer Campaigns club) and we are not immune to this.

Says a lot if the one who got his way wants to kill the discussion. The damage is there and the fallout has to be handled, and that won't work if members just sit there and agree to such decisions with any proper discussion.

Author:  Clint Matthews [ Fri Aug 31, 2018 1:06 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Maneuver games are no more

Mr Corbin has asked in a previous post that we all just please move on.

Was not me.............I was quoting him.

Author:  Jeff Rossbach [ Sat Sep 01, 2018 12:26 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Maneuver games are no more

I have been on the role here for about a year. I have only played a few games. I have read most of the forums and wish to make these observations:
I joined because of what I thought was an active club with distinct armies.
I have NEVER been contacted by anyone from the Allied army or units.
I have somehow been promoted to Major even though I haven't played games and don't understand how that happens.
In reading the most recent forums in regards to just about every topic, the word "rules" comes into play. Everyone who posts seems to know what they are or where to read them. The only rules I see no matter how hard I look, are for ordering shoes.
I must agree with Mr Heck on keeping the distinct difference between battles and maneuvers. But since I have not been playing here due to a lack of camaraderie from my chosen Army, I will just post my humble observations.

Size 12
J. Rossbach

Author:  Geoff McCarty [ Sat Sep 01, 2018 6:13 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Maneuver games are no more

Way I see it the decision is up to whomever registered this forum and serves the recording site. The infrastructure is there at least for renewing the old method if there is alot of support for it. I think the decision on scoring manuever battles was due to alot more of the intra-force competition taking place. The recording scripts were being wasted because of so few inter-force competition. As for participation and esprit de corps, it's up to the individual to make of the forum or club what he will. I've gotten a few games from here in the last week. I'm happy with it because that's what I want to do. Talk on a forum about Napoleonics and play these games HTH.
I seriously don't care about battle records or force structure but, if it actually meant a greater sense of community than I'd fall in line.

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