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 Post subject: Le Cavalry Tred
PostPosted: Mon Oct 15, 2018 6:32 am 
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Posts: 179
Since we 4 or so forum users are compelled by some internetiquette to post strictly on topic spreading out valuable information in a multitude of links; here is the cavalry thread. Let's sticky all these into the main forum. What do you say? ;p
Bill, I'd like your assessment of the cavalry charge multiplier. I see good reasoning for both *3 and *5 depending on how all other values are structured with either. The defending 10 men to *3 charging 10 horsemen mean casualty ratio is (1:1.8). The *5 ratio is (1:3). I think at least *4 is necessary but, lowering the charge multiplier would allow for more cavalry speed, no facing costs, reduced infantry and artillery firepower, full disorder movement, etc. The *5 multiple and current cavalry speed are much more valuable than the 3:5 VP ratio with infantry. Those values should vary widely based on scenario and be listed in the description I think.

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Lieutenant Geoff McCarty
45ème Régiment d’Infanterie de Ligne,
2éme Brigade,
2ème Division,
1er Corps d'Armée,
La Grande Armée


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 Post subject: Re: Le Cavalry Tred
PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2018 12:53 am 
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Reasoning is simple: Infantry NOT in square? TOAST for a good cavalry regiment. Pure toast.

Check out the famous charge by Kellerman at Marengo. He charges with a little over 400 cavalry against disordered Austrian battalions (grenadiers no less) and tramples them or sends them packing to the rear, hors de combat for the rest of the battle.

I rest my case. Try doing that charge in our game. ;) Will never happen. They were not stacked in the same hex either. You attack one and maul it but the followup melee - your cavalry is now disordered (for whatever reason - I cant figure that one out) and they attack the next battalion at a reduced rate. .. Ok so you do win that second melee. ... followup is 2 .. you just used up one of those. You attack the next battalion and lets say you win. .. that fourth battalion cannot be touched because you are out of followup for the cavalry.

The followup used to be four hexes. In some ways I miss those days.

Bottom line: a good battle cavalry regiment could maul any infantry regiment not in square.

Try doing that with the British Horse Guards at Waterloo. (the charge described above) Because they are only something like 250 troopers the best you get is 250 x 5 or 1250 for strength then add in 20% for attacking and another 25% for heavies. Still wont get you above 1500 I think.

I was the one that boosted the charge mod and its for that reason. Cavalry kicked butt on infantry not in square. Sometimes a volley stopped a charge and yes that can happen. The cavalry charges infantry frontally, takes the shot and Disorders. Presto, diminished value in the melee.

What I think any Napoleonic rules (minis or computer or board game) needs is a Solid or Hasty square rule. Squares were broken during this period. Not in our series. A square is a fortress of bayonets. Never breaks.

My feeling is that if you melee and defeat a square (inf vs inf.) then on the next turn its no longer a square.

Its a shame you were not in the club when Al Amos and others were here. They would have enjoyed chatting with you about all of this. We have hashed out just about every topic in this series. You might want to look back through the archives from some of the past discussions.

I would love to put out a good Napoleonics game on this scale but it would be difficult for me to find a programmer. Someone that can finish up what they start. So hard to find that these days as family, work and health always seem to intervene.

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General der Kavallerie Wilhelm Prinz Peters von Dennewitz
Husaren-Regiment Hessen-Kassel
Infanterie-Brigade Hessen-Kassel
Königlich-Preußisches Armee-Korps
Scenario Designer for Napoleonic Battles series - John Tiller Software


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 Post subject: Re: Le Cavalry Tred
PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2018 4:27 am 
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I did a search of your posts before making the thread but couldn't find an explaination. It seems in Jena you began with a x5 and switched it a couple times. Which definitely affects the outcome of my Auerstaedt HtH. It's a 4km oval of French battalions in square with my massive Prussian cavalry forces standing around twiddling their thumbs while the infantry forms up for attack. I don't doubt that I'll win given the forces but, the on/off switch of the cavalry charge path and the square formation makes the battleground look too contrived. No face costs would greatly benefit cav and foot arty's ability at delivering attacks on attempted flankers. Then their respective overwhelming attack powers upon infantry could be brought to median levels.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of ... ter-attack
There's alot more to that particular action than 400 cavalry murdering 3 battalions of grenadiers. Kellerman's brigade had rested the Austrians were marching all day. Latterman's brigade had also been reduced at Marengo during the assault. The cavalry were attacking the infantry line's flank. The infantry were being barraged from their front. It wasn't a slaughter either because the Austrian Chief of Staff surrendered. That said I don't think it's unrealistic that a cavalry charge against infantry should produce a 3:1 casualty ratio given equal numbers.

Although a square is unassailable the face of a regimental infantry line is nearly so. Should be more difficult to melee the face of a battalion I think. What about a charge multiplier of x6 (x9 could be feasible) and raising the cavalry fire penalty +30%? That would definitely raise the stakes on charging a line and sudden flank attacks. I always assumed dragoons were just mounted infantry and should be able to fire but, doesn't look like the Europeans used them in this way much. They wouldn't waste ammo on an infantry square unless they had too.

Didn't you draw up a checklist of functions for a Napoleonic game? What mode of gameplay would you use, turned-based strategy? The greatest feature that's missing from all pre-modern tactics games as I've said before is computing attacks with an algebraic equation between volume of fire and target silhouette. Men may not be armored fighting vehicles but, when dealing with Napoleonic infantry the same calculations should be used including penetration effect, drop in depth and around the target area.

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Lieutenant Geoff McCarty
45ème Régiment d’Infanterie de Ligne,
2éme Brigade,
2ème Division,
1er Corps d'Armée,
La Grande Armée


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 Post subject: Re: Le Cavalry Tred
PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2018 2:44 pm 
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More damage can be done with the OR "No Melee Eliminations" turned off. By that you'r maybe able to swallow a battalion what in some abstract way can simulated a battalion surrendering.

PS Corrected my post.

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Chef de Bataillon Christian Hecht, Corps Commander
La Grande Armée - 3éme Corps d'Armée
"Vive la révolution, vive la france and vive L’Empereur!"


Last edited by Christian Hecht on Wed Oct 17, 2018 6:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Le Cavalry Tred
PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2018 4:02 pm 
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WRONG! It's NME off!. Aha, I win one. Your turn my good man. It's one thing to claim that there are too many casualties and another to claim that various attack values are properly set. Cavalry charges deserve their place on the field so perhaps the time and space scaling can be brought down in order to allow the player time to form square if that is really so important while salvaging or even enhancing turn dynamics. The Leipzig 5min/50m parameters are jacked up I believe but, hopefully more diverse tactical level maps can be made.


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