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 Post subject: Four Nations Collide
PostPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2018 9:37 am 
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Gents, I raise my glass to Ed Blackburn who has been a great opponent these past years. We just completed our third large battle, this one on the Jena-Auerstadt battlefield. Prior to this we fought two battles on the Austerlitz field - #24 Campaign in Moravia - switching sides after the first battle.

The Four Nations Collide scenario we played was slightly modified to give the Russians a chance in the north against the French I Corps. The Allies need to achieve 12,000 VPs for a minor victory so starting off at a major deficit did not seem fair. The Russian army was moved further east and out of a pocket they were originally positioned in at Naumburg.

I commented on this game in an earlier post as it is quite the challenge for both sides. The major battle took place at and west of Gera on the eastern side of the map. The French were holding their own against the Austrians and Russians, but the balance was tilted to the Allies when the Prussians finally arrived after two days of marching (the Saale river plays a significant role as in the Jena campaign battles).

The final tally was 326 turns. Ed has agreed to switch sides again, so we are setting out on another campaign.

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 Post subject: Re: Four Nations Collide
PostPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2018 10:45 am 
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Wow! 326 turns! Did you guys sleep at all during the game? ROFL

Please email with me on any suggested changes to the scenario. I believe this was one where there was no Russian artillery ammo, correct?

Let me know what you think about the victory conditions. If you have different values you suggest I am all ears.

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Husaren-Regiment Hessen-Kassel
Infanterie-Brigade Hessen-Kassel
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Scenario Designer for Napoleonic Battles series - John Tiller Software


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 Post subject: Re: Four Nations Collide
PostPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2018 1:59 pm 
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The Saale river is quite an obstacle with no bridges in the original scn.

I have to assume you added bridges.

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 Post subject: Re: Four Nations Collide
PostPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2018 2:08 pm 
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Bridges are present in the scenario we played. If you want the hex grid locations to add them in I can send them, or send a copy of the scn file we used. There some locations that seem like a bridge would have been present, such as the termination of a pike at Kahla (hex 514,40) but have left the scenario as is.

I've seen problems previously where bridges were missing and notified Bill about them. Now, I just add them in with the editor - but not in this instance.

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 Post subject: Re: Four Nations Collide
PostPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2018 2:13 pm 
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Bill Peters wrote:
Wow! 326 turns! Did you guys sleep at all during the game? ROFL

Please email with me on any suggested changes to the scenario. I believe this was one where there was no Russian artillery ammo, correct?

Let me know what you think about the victory conditions. If you have different values you suggest I am all ears.


I played Jena #00a_2_Weimar (with bridges added and modified victory hexes)

We played 200 turns. Minor victory was 10,000 points and major victory was 20,000 points.

I had..................14,595 inf losses 5,787 cavalry losses 20 guns lost

my opponent had 31,595 inf losses 12,350 cavalry losses 163 guns lost

with 1,650 objective points taken

I had 7,401 points..........according to the "victory dialog" that's a draw.

I would think if an Army did that kind of damage, it would be a major victory.

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1er Régiment de Chevau-légers lanciers
Cavalerie de la Vieille Garde
La Garde Imperiale
La Grande Armee


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 Post subject: Re: Four Nations Collide
PostPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2018 2:16 pm 
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Jeff Mathes wrote:
Bridges are present in the scenario we played. If you want the hex grid locations to add them in I can send them, or send a copy of the scn file we used. There some locations that seem like a bridge would have been present, such as the termination of a pike at Kahla (hex 514,40) but have left the scenario as is.

I've seen problems previously where bridges were missing and notified Bill about them. Now, I just add them in with the editor - but not in this instance.


same here............I just added them where it looked like there should have been a bridge.

I found the victory conditions to be extreme in some of those large scn's

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 Post subject: Re: Four Nations Collide
PostPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2018 2:39 pm 
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I'll just say assigning VP conditions is one of the more difficult decisions a scenario designer has to make. Much depends on the caliber/experience of the opponents; and in these large scenarios with so much latitude of movement, one bad decision can result in significant losses.

When I first looked at the Four Nations Collide scenario, the VP numbers looked daunting for the Allies. Once you play the scenario, the numbers become more acceptable. I'll wait until Ed and I finish a second go-around with this scenario before making any recommendation to Bill for adjusting victory levels.

In this recent battle, I recorded the following with respect to casualties:

French: Infantry - 84,970; Cavalry - 24,312; Artillery - 217; Supply - 5420; Leaders - 184.
Allies: Infantry - 45,201; Cavalry - 17,952; Artillery - 157; Supply - 1310; Leaders - 39.
VP: 9074.
There are no Objective hexes in the scenario.

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50th (Stein) Infantry Regiment
Dritte Brigade
Austrian Korps


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 Post subject: Re: Four Nations Collide
PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2018 2:22 pm 
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I believe that was the longest game yet I have played. Thanks to Jeff for the great return rate and for staying with the games. I was hoping to beat the Austrians and Russians before the Prussians arrived but I bit off more than I could chew. For Bill, I think the Russians had their full complement of artillery ammo. As to VP's it is difficult to say after one play. We will let you know in a few years after we finish the second game. :frenchwink1: :frenchdrunk:

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 Post subject: Re: Four Nations Collide
PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2018 12:04 pm 
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Looks like I need to change the victory conditions so that they reflect more accurately the losses.

As you guys know its almost impossible to playtest these long scenarios. You remember, Jeff, that in our "Battle of Leipzig" playtest games that we never got past the early part of the 2nd day. Most of the time players would hurl their units at each other looking for a quick outcome (mainly the French players). The Allies needed to stay apart from the French on the first day in order to have a chance at winning as they were outnumbered on two fronts.

The same could be said of the Jena playtesting. In some cases the big long scenarios ran into late on the 2nd day or early 3rd day but again, its just very hard to playtest these to a satisfactory conclusion.

All comments here noted and I will look to change the victory levels accordingly. Also the bridges were added in and I will look in the Four Armies Collide scenario to make sure I added objectives.

Thanks for the input!

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Husaren-Regiment Hessen-Kassel
Infanterie-Brigade Hessen-Kassel
Königlich-Preußisches Armee-Korps
Scenario Designer for Napoleonic Battles series - John Tiller Software


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 Post subject: Re: Four Nations Collide
PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2018 12:12 pm 
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Guys - should the exit VP hexes be removed? Seems like either I should remove them or shorten the scenario length so that the Allies do not end up pushed up against the board edge at the end of the other scenarios where the French are the aggressor.

I added them in originally because we were finding that it was going to be a French steamroller operation.

So let me ask:

1. Clint - in your game - how many units exited the map? The exiting of Allied units would have deducted from the French Victory count. Did you exit French units from the map? Maybe sometime send me a game file for that game so I can look it over.

2. Jeff - in your game - was there a time when exiting the map should have been an option or is your view of the situation such that its all good? No need for exit hexes?

I really dont like exit hexes in the scenarios but sometimes they are useful.

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Husaren-Regiment Hessen-Kassel
Infanterie-Brigade Hessen-Kassel
Königlich-Preußisches Armee-Korps
Scenario Designer for Napoleonic Battles series - John Tiller Software


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 Post subject: Re: Four Nations Collide
PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2018 2:12 pm 
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Bill, most of the Leipzig playtesting of the larger battles were done as teams if my memory is correct. Two players can get through the game much faster and a similar outcome reached in most cases since most, if not all, of these playtesters are very experienced. Still, the side conversations with the team made for some memorable discussions, e.g. Warren and myself as we discussed how best to take on the French in one of the Operational Leipzig scenarios.

Russian artillery ammo for the Four Nations scenario seems to be right. After one day of sporadic and two days of major fighting the Russians still had about 950 rounds remaining. Bumping their supply up another 500 rounds would be a benefit to the Allies but would likely not be needed except by players that fire at any target within range...

To my knowledge there are no exit hexes in the Four Nations scenarios. It is a contest of planning and maneuver to arrive at the best opportunity for a successful outcome. I would not consider exit hexes in this scenario as the French could just march off the map - not that they would, but they certainly would have the option.

With respect to victory conditions, I would wait until Ed and I finish our second game after switching sides. The VP numbers for the Allies may need to be lowered but lets see the outcome of the second game first. Anyway, I doubt there are many players jumping up to play this huge scenario.

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 Post subject: Re: Four Nations Collide
PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2018 10:11 pm 
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Bill Peters wrote:
Guys - should the exit VP hexes be removed? Seems like either I should remove them or shorten the scenario length so that the Allies do not end up pushed up against the board edge at the end of the other scenarios where the French are the aggressor.

I added them in originally because we were finding that it was going to be a French steamroller operation.

So let me ask:

1. Clint - in your game - how many units exited the map? The exiting of Allied units would have deducted from the French Victory count. Did you exit French units from the map? Maybe sometime send me a game file for that game so I can look it over.

2. Jeff - in your game - was there a time when exiting the map should have been an option or is your view of the situation such that its all good? No need for exit hexes?

I really dont like exit hexes in the scenarios but sometimes they are useful.


none in my game........I was heading in that direction and my opponent threw in the towel..

I don't have a copy....sorry.

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Duc de Stockach-Engen
1er Régiment de Chevau-légers lanciers
Cavalerie de la Vieille Garde
La Garde Imperiale
La Grande Armee


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