Napoleonic Wargame Club

Campaign Austerlitz Update - Helper(s) Wanted
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Author:  Bill Peters [ Mon Jun 22, 2020 2:57 pm ]
Post subject:  Campaign Austerlitz Update - Helper(s) Wanted

Ok - I have completed the work on the Russian artillery and need a helper (or two) to look over some of the scenarios with me. If interested please respond here!

I will email you the files you need and give you some explanation of what has changed. Players with current game files of Austerlitz are very much welcome. That way I know if there are going to be problem with existing games! (Rich H. will appreciate this part very much)

Author:  Christian Hecht [ Mon Jun 22, 2020 5:04 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Campaign Austerlitz Update - Helper(s) Wanted

At your service.

Author:  Andy Moss [ Wed Jun 24, 2020 5:58 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Campaign Austerlitz Update - Helper(s) Wanted

Me too if I am needed

Author:  Bill Peters [ Sun Jun 28, 2020 4:27 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Campaign Austerlitz Update - Helper(s) Wanted

Thanks, guys ..... might have something really soon here ... just looked over what I had and still need to downsize the Russian gun strengths. Found in that big Russian formation on the right (Bagratian I think) at Austerlitz that there are 4 Russian gun sections of 5 guns ea. Should be 5 gun sections of 4 guns each ... pretty easy fix but will take some time updating the scenarios that use the Austerlitz and Moravian OBs. Am embroiled with doing AI scripts for a Panzer Campaigns project too.

Author:  Bill Peters [ Wed Jul 22, 2020 3:17 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Campaign Austerlitz Update - Helper(s) Wanted

In working on Bagration's "Army Advance Guard" in the Austerlitz OB I ran across a reference in Robert Goetz' OB for the Battle of Austerlitz that there was an Austrian battery (Frierenberger) attached to that formation. Turns out it had 12 guns. Should this be 6lb guns or 12lb guns? Any Austrian historican/afficiendos want to chime in on this one?

There were four companies of light Russian guns (20 in total) in the infantry brigade in the OB we have. Goetz says 24 guns ... 2 light companies. So I added in the additional two companies, changed the quantity of guns for each to four and altogether there are six sections of equal distribution: 2 x 6lb Medium, 2 x 6lb Light, 2 x 10lb Licorne. So there are 4 more guns than in the original OB but the companies are now correct.

I have yet to see Bagration hold off the French of Lannes unless the Russians shift reserves over that way (The Guard) so adding in these extra guns is not going to unbalance the scenarios .....

Working on this today as well as other scenarios that need adjustment.

Author:  Bill Peters [ Wed Jul 22, 2020 3:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Campaign Austerlitz Update - Helper(s) Wanted

on Frierenberger mentioned above:

"Monument near Austerlitz[5]

On December 2, 1995, a stone monument near the old post office along the Olomouc road was unveiled (49.18925°N 16.8432778°E). It was built by the Czechoslovak Napoleonic Society together with the Austerlitz Battery to commemorate two Austrian artillery batteries, which under the command of Major Václav Jan Frierenberger covered the retreat of the Russian corps of General Pyotr Bagration at the conclusion of the Battle of Austerlitz.[6][7]

From the Wiki article on this heroic Austrian officer. ... erenberger

My guess is that he commanded light guns .... sounds like a better choice of weapon for a rearguard action. Comments?

For now I will attach his artillery companies (2) to the Reserve, assign them 6lb guns and if someone says that they were 12lb guns please list a source.

Author:  Bill Peters [ Wed Jul 22, 2020 4:20 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Campaign Austerlitz Update - Helper(s) Wanted

More on this: from For God and Kaiser: The Imperial Austrian Army, 1619-1918 By Richard Bassett I learned that the Austrian battery arrived from Olmultz as the fugitives from Bagration's formation were streaming back in disarray ..... they covered the retreat ....

So I do not see a need to add them in. They arrived very late in the battle meaning like on the very last 4 turns ....

End of this discussion .... :thumbsup:

Author:  Christian Hecht [ Wed Jul 22, 2020 4:35 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Campaign Austerlitz Update - Helper(s) Wanted

The artillery that is listed at the bottom of Goets OOB seems to be part of the Artillery park and not of the Advance Guard.
It lists:
- 1x Russian Position Company of 12 guns
- 2x Russian Light Company of 24 guns
- Unspecified Austrian Artillery, noting Frierenberger's battery of 12 guns

Currently the OOB has 1x 4 licorne, 1x 4 12lb, 1x 4 6lb, I guess this is depicting the position battery?
In that case it's fine to add the 2 light Russian companies.
I would still suggest adding also the 2 Austrian companies under Frierenberger, yes they might have been late too but Duffy notes on them:
"Falling back slowly Bagration set up a defensive position around Welleschowitz and was reinforced by the welcome arrival of an Austrian battery of twelve cannon under the command of Major Frierenberger which deployed on a rise of ground near the Posorsitz post house, firing with such accuracy that the French artillery, accompanying their infantry, had to pull back out of their range, this, in turn, causing a knock-on effect which stalled the advance of the infantry. The road to Hungary was now secure, and Bagration was able to join the main army."
So they had an impact, if only it was to cover Bagrations withdrawal.

I know this is out of scope but I always wondered why the Russian foot units have A ratings what gives them a boost of 20% in fire & melee combat. The Russian artillery was bad at Austerlitz and the French captured at least 142 possibly up to 176 guns in that battle. This was of course also the fault of lack of support by own skirmishers and cavalry, nonetheless I do not see any reasons to boost the Russians over the French, who's foot batteries of B ratings. The French were famous for deploying artillery aggressive & effective and if one would consider boosting any artillery arm for 1805 it would be that of the French.

BTW here an interactive panorama depicting the battlefield today: ... index.html

Author:  Bill Peters [ Fri Jul 24, 2020 12:24 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Campaign Austerlitz Update - Helper(s) Wanted

Food for thought on the Russian artillery morale. I will give it some thought.

The current artillery breakdown is:

Two light batteries in the main infantry brigade. Composed of one section of 6lb Medium guns, one section of 6lb Light guns and one section of 10lb Licornes. The heavy battery in the reserve has one section of four 12lb Medium guns, one section of four 12lb Light guns and one section of four 20lb Licornes.

As I said earlier I redid the light sections that were in the game. There were two section of 6 guns and two sections of 4 guns for a total of 20 guns. That was probably from Bowden's OB. While the OB is not all from Robert Goetz' book I did use some of his. Bowden and Goetz OBs vary significantly in organization. Its not like Goetz is "Improved Bowden." They both came to different structures for the Russians, for instance, and in particular their version of the Russian Imperial Guard is hard to reconcile with each other.

My goal was to fix the artillery section issue. Now we have the different types of guns and in particular the Horse Artillery was one big glaring error.

Napoleonics is a very opinionated period and thankfully once all of this is over I am bowing out of designing games for the period. Just too varied in how the OBs come across.

I should have something for the Austerlitz review group soon. I have been digging through the artwork for Wagram for the last couple of days rebuilding the Artwork Spreadsheet and I had a minor issue come up today with the numbering that took me some time to correct. I will be finished with it tomorrow and then can turn my attention to Austerlitz.

Bill Cann told me he cannot participate because he is visiting family so we will do the best we can without him.

Question on those two Austrian batteries: were they 6lb guns or 12lbers? The Artillery Park doesn't give me a definitive answer on that question. I have to know which type guns before I would even think of adding them in. I woldn't want to have to backtrack and change them. And frankly if they enter late AND the Allies are winning its a waste. They wouldn't reach the front in time. On the other hand if the Allies are losing badly why continue the fight just to use those two batteries to cover your retreat?

I think for that reason alone, and the fact that I am really pressed for time, I am leaving them out. Anyone can take the OB, copy it, and add them in later on if they like and then add them into the scenarios ....

Its more of a question of historical accuracy vs. realistic outlook ...

I also have no clue when they arrived ... the text I read didn't reveal anything on that matter. And if its late .... well how about the lighting conditions ... also ... in our games ... guns will not stop a group of guns and troops. They are more of annoyance that can be gone around.

Author:  Christian Hecht [ Sun Jul 26, 2020 3:14 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Campaign Austerlitz Update - Helper(s) Wanted

I was provided with the ratings of the Russians in Eylau and this quality gradation that they have seems pretty fitting to the way the Russians handled their regiments.
A = Grenadier bat. in Grenadier Regiments
B = Fusilier bat. in Grenadier Regiments
B = Grenadier bat. in Musketeer Regiments
C = Musketier bat. in Musketeer Regiments

Could that be added to Austerlitz too? Barring of course individual ratings that purposely differ from the normal.

In Austerlitz so far all bat. in all Grenadier Regiments are rated B while almost all bat. of Musketier Regiments are rated C, only exception are 8x Grenadier bat. from Arkhangsk, Oldingerman, Pskov, Perm, Vibourg, Kursk, Ryazan and Galicia Musketier Regiments that are already rated B. I think overall just a few units would have to be uprated to be in line with Eylau.

Author:  Bill Peters [ Sun Jul 26, 2020 8:20 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Campaign Austerlitz Update - Helper(s) Wanted

I just did a cursory view of the morale ratings for Eylau, Austerlitz and Jena. They vary quite a bit. In Eylau you see the Fanatical rating used a lot. For Jena its used as well. Austerlitz doesnt make use of it.

I would think that Jena and Eylau should definitely have the same values. My memory fails me as to why I used the Fanatical rating for the Eylau game. I don't see using it for Austerlitz.

As to aligning the morale ratings. Yes, I should do that. I also should go back and fix the Jena OBs (think its just Four Nations) that have Russians in them.

I wont fix the artillery even though its got errors with the sections. Just not enough time right now.

For Jena .. it will have to wait. The update for Jena just went out.

Author:  Bill Peters [ Mon Jul 27, 2020 8:17 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Campaign Austerlitz Update - Helper(s) Wanted

Christian - ok - the verdict is in: the morale ratings for Austerlitz for the Russian infantry will remain as is. There is too high of a margin for error if I start making changes AND even if the OBs do not align within the game I just do not have the time to go through the OBs and make the changes.

If I use Ultra Edit to make global changes in the files the problem is this: the Line grenadier battalion and the 1st-Grenadier battalion of the Grenadier regiments are using the same artwork images numbers. Thus if I increase up the morale value of the grenadier battalion of the grenadier regiments it will increase the morale value of the Musketeer regiment's grenadier battalion too.

Here are sample lines from the game:

U 675 5 R T 54 29 Gr/OldIngerman.MR - sample grenadier battalion from a Musketeer Regiment (MR)

U 481 5 R T 54 29 Gr/Little Rus. GR - sample grenadier battalion from a Grenadier Regiment (GR)

So as you can see the morale value of the grenadier bn of the MR is 5 in most cases. I think I saw some 4 morale units so that would not be hard to change them to a 5.

But changing the Gren Bn of the GRs to a 6 would mean that I would have to go through every OB and individually increase the morale of the battalions.

I checked to see if the Pavlov Grenadier Regiment was in the OBs but it was not. It must have remained behind in Russia.

So the bottom line is that I wont be making any morale improvements to the Russians unless its for the line Grenadier battalions which a use morale value of 4.

Author:  Bill Peters [ Mon Jul 27, 2020 12:30 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Campaign Austerlitz Update - Helper(s) Wanted

Another look at the OB files revealed a veritible rat's nest of image errors for the Russian infantry. By changing the images I will be able to isolate the morale ratings properly and change them to be accurate. It will mean more time spent away from Panzer work but I want to get this solved once and for all.

I am making up an Artwork - Units.bmp and 3D image spreadsheet/PDF for the game and then from that I will look over the image selections.

I also have a question: In Hourtoulle's book on Austerlitz he calls the MR - Musketeer Regiments either Fusilier or Musketeer. I am taking it that he means that the Fusilier was the elite battalion while the Musketeers are the line battalions. He makes no such distinction at all for the Grenadier Regiments. All of his images for a "GR" are called "Grenadier." I know that his book is not a great source for how the Russian army was organized but I seem to remember that the Russians renamed the battalion types.

Can anyone familiar with the Russian army tell me what the battalions were called during 1805? Was it different than in 1807?

Author:  Christian Hecht [ Mon Jul 27, 2020 2:24 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Campaign Austerlitz Update - Helper(s) Wanted

Regarding the Russians, afaik in 1805 the Grenadier Regiment had 1x Grenadier Battalion and 2x Fusilier Battalions, while the Musketier Regiment had 1x Grenadier Battalion and 2x Musketier Battalions. So the term Fusilier was something used for the other battalions in a grenadier regiment, not for anything in a musketier regiment. And that was so till 1811 when some changes got implemented.

As for Fanatical ratings for the Russians. Doesn't make sense in this era(1805-07), I can't think of any units that have so different quality & combat moral that there is the need to depict this by using fanatical ratings, and this not only in the Russian army.
In addition, neither Austerlitz nor Jena uses fanatical ratings for the Russians, and if it isn't necessary there it should also not be necessary for Eylau.
Finally, if there are worries about the performance of the Russians, the new threat disorder OR together with other changes will make it harder for the attacker and by this surely ensure that the Russian deliver the performance they showed in 1805-07.
Overall I can only suggest to removed the fanatical ratings for Austerlitz, Jena & Eylau.

Author:  Bill Peters [ Mon Jul 27, 2020 10:43 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Campaign Austerlitz Update - Helper(s) Wanted

Yes, that was my understanding too. It just struck me odd that Hourtoulle mentions Fusiliers for the Musketeer Regiments.

So today I finished with the Artwork PDF for Austerlitz. This was a good exercise. I have one image that I am not sure what it is. Other than that I have figured out what units the images are for.

For Austerlitz we have images that were never used. Here are some examples:

1. Russian Uhlans. At this time only the Grand Duke Constantine's Uhlan Regiment was in existence. The Lithuanian and Tartar regiments would not come along until the 1807 campaign. So there is an Uhlan image that is not used. Would be interesting for a variant scenario to use it.

2. Saxons - for some reason none of the Saxon images were used. I should have added them into the Four Nations OB as part of the Prussian army. So they are there along with 3D images for anyone that wants to use them.

3. British Fusilier image - for whatever reason I didn't use it for the British invasion battles. Not sure why.

4. Prussian Garde Grenadier

5. Old Guard Foot Artillery - history behind this was that I was not aware that the OG Foot batteries were created after the 1807 campaign. So I asked Mark to add in the images. Only the OG Horse Artillery was in place by 1805-07. As noted in the Eylau game, the French would attach Line foot batteries to the Guard to act as a support for the foot troops.

6. The Grenadier regiments of Oudinot were not organized as per 1807. At first I thought of varying the units images used and include Voltiguers and so on. Turns out it was just the Grenadier companies that were siphoned off of the Line regiments so I left the images alone.

Now for one of my additions:

For the Russian Grenadier predicament I decided to copy the Grenadier image they are using, change the color of the collar and put it into one of the empty slots in the Units.bmp file. I will then use that image for the Gren. Bns. of the Gren. Regts. The Gren. bns. of the Musketeer Regiments will continue to use the same image. In this way I can use Ultra Edit to change the morale values AND the images will appear different. I wish we had an image that had the big plume of the Russian Gren. Bn. of the Grenadier Regiments. There is one in Eylau but we are not supposed to use artwork for the newer games as it doesn't match AND the 3D artwork uses the more dense version for the unit.

So a lot of good came out of today's work. I noted artwork image numbering errors and fixed those.

I still need to get back to fixing the Rus. artillery sections in the scenarios. I want to finish that off as soon as I can ...

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