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 Post subject: What are Fleches?
PostPosted: Thu Dec 09, 2004 11:37 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jun 08, 2001 1:45 pm
Posts: 167
Location: USA
Does anyone know any details about the fleches. I was under the impression that they were just small redoubts thus earthworks. I would assume they have pointy sticks pointing out of the faces but if those could be removed then I would think cavalry could go over them. I guess it would depend on how steep they were. Also what is the opinion on cavalry charging over them.

Marechal Jonathan Thayer
Comte de Vienne
1e/1er Regiment de Chasseurs a Pied de la Vieille Garde
1/11/III
Armee du Nord

Col
Old North State Guard
2/3/III
Army of Northern Virginia

jonathanthayer@bellsouth.net


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Dec 09, 2004 11:51 pm 
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Joined: Tue May 29, 2001 9:12 am
Posts: 1243
Location: United Kingdom
Well from the written accounts I have they were open ended earthworks, and quite vulnerable to the massed French artillery batteries. Quite low too as there are accounts of cavalry surging in and around them. In the NIR game they are pretty impregnable forts and I certainly wouldn't charge them with cavalry.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Dec 10, 2004 2:56 am 
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Joined: Tue May 22, 2001 4:51 pm
Posts: 1050
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Take a look, here:
http://www.xenophongi.org/rushistory/battles/borodino/borod2.htm
http://www.xenophongi.org/rushistory/battles/borodino/borod9.htm

<b><font color="gold">Ernie Sands
GdB,1er Brig,1eme Div,VI Corps,AdR
President, Colonial Campaign Club
</b></font id="gold">


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Dec 10, 2004 3:19 am 
The french word <b><i>Flèche</i></b> means Arrow.
It relates more to the overall shape of the fortifications.

Like Andy said, they were open ended earthworks but I disagree with the fact they are pretty impregnable when it comes to NiR. At mêlée the modifier is -2 ( -3 if attacking from lower grounds), meaning that you could win the assault at 1:1 but with 1 chances out of 12 (not too good but still...). At 3:1, you have one chance out of two, etc...

With cavalry, the same rules apply <b>without the charge bonus</b>. Being open ended, once you win the hex you get no protection out of it; you are still exposed to ranged fire (and counter attack) so you may regret this kind of manoeuver.

Nevertheless, as far as I am concerned, I really like to try this stunning move when the opportunity comes. In a typical example, if you charge against the Northern Flèche with the whole VIII Corps Cavalry, you do it with 1087 horsemen (325 + 325 + (350 * 1.25) against 475 men (12 cannons and 175 infantrymen). The odds are 2:1 , meaning with the modifiers that you have 5 chances out of 12 to win. Not so good but when it succeeds, the effects on the ennemy's morale are often devastating. If I recall, I succeeded in doing it against Generalissimus Moss and he abandonned our game one or two turns after!!

[url="mailto:pyguinard@hotmail.com"]Lt Pierre-Yves Guinard[/url],
6e Division, II Corp
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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Dec 10, 2004 3:29 am 
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Ernie Sands</i>
<br />Take a look, here:
http://www.xenophongi.org/rushistory/battles/borodino/borod2.htm
http://www.xenophongi.org/rushistory/battles/borodino/borod9.htm

<b><font color="gold">Ernie Sands
GdB,1er Brig,1eme Div,VI Corps,AdR
President, Colonial Campaign Club
</b></font id="gold">

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

<font size="4">Cool!</font id="size4">[:)]

[url="mailto:pyguinard@hotmail.com"]Lt Pierre-Yves Guinard[/url],
6e Division, II Corp
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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Dec 10, 2004 5:33 am 
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Joined: Tue Oct 09, 2001 10:57 am
Posts: 2217
Location: Canada
I'll have to try the massed cav trick against Andy in our next game.... :>

General John Corbin
Commandant of Cadets
L'Ecole de Mars
L'Armee du Rhin


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Dec 10, 2004 6:02 am 
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Joined: Tue May 22, 2001 7:35 pm
Posts: 807
Location: USA
Thanks for the pics Ernie. The accounts of the battle of Borodino describe these earthworks as being relatively low and not quite finished (no abatis, etc.). Then as the battle progressed they became even more ragged and worn down and presented little more than a mound of soft dirt. Movement in either direction was little disrupted.

As an allied player, I would welcome a French cavalry charge into the fletch. Once there, they are disrupted, an easy target for my massed batteried in the rear, and subject to counterattack and zoc elimination. Cavalry are worth lots of points in the BG system. Its disappointing to hear that an allied officer capitulated so early. The situation was not irreversable and a visionary officer would have seen the opportunities.


FM Sir 'Muddy' Jones, KG
2nd Life Guards, Household Cavalry
CO, Cavalry Corps
Allied CiC


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Dec 10, 2004 6:17 am 
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Sir Muddy</i>
<br />(...) Its disappointing to hear that an allied officer capitulated so early. The situation was not irreversable and a visionary officer would have seen the opportunities.

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">


Sir Muddy,

- I wasn't saying that Andy capitulated!!
- Neither did I say that I charged without support from Infantry.

For sure is that when a leader is "somewhat" motivated, the taking of a strong point (along with Russian Artillery VPs) surely has something to do with the cancellation of the game a few phases later!

Would you like to try me on the battlefield? [:D]

[url="mailto:pyguinard@hotmail.com"]Lt Pierre-Yves Guinard[/url],
6e Division, II Corp
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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Dec 10, 2004 10:36 am 
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Joined: Tue May 22, 2001 7:35 pm
Posts: 807
Location: USA
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">

Would you like to try me on the battlefield? [:D]

[url="mailto:pyguinard@hotmail.com"]Lt Pierre-Yves Guinard[/url],
6e Division, II Corp
Image
AdN

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

<font color="red">Sorry, I no longer play the Battleground games and I don't own NRC. Perhaps another time and another field.</font id="red">


FM Sir 'Muddy' Jones, KG
2nd Life Guards, Household Cavalry
CO, Cavalry Corps
Allied CiC


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Dec 10, 2004 12:14 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jun 08, 2001 1:45 pm
Posts: 167
Location: USA
Thanks for all the information. To me the fleches don't look to be much hinderance to cavalry. This issue came up because I successfully charged the southern position and the etiquette of such a move was addressed. Based on the replies here I would say that the attack was not out of line as there were no restrictions discussed at the beginning. Generally I feel that cavalry can charge over obstructed hexsides but not into obstructed hexes.

Marechal Jonathan Thayer
Comte de Vienne
1e/1er Regiment de Chasseurs a Pied de la Vieille Garde
1/11/III
Armee du Nord

Col
Old North State Guard
2/3/III
Army of Northern Virginia

jonathanthayer@bellsouth.net


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Dec 10, 2004 3:23 pm 
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Joined: Wed May 23, 2001 10:18 am
Posts: 5275
Location:
You were all close but off the mark by a bit.

A fleche was used to break up a formation that attacked across it. Thus the arrow shape.

As the line/column would come across it the unit would disorder the front and next ranks. It make counterattacking easier for the defender something that we forget happened in the Napoleonic Wars for melees.

This from Scott Bowden and many other sources on fleches.

They were NOT used to hide behind for defense in melees (perhaps for fire combat but that is not the issue here). The defender would setup about 20 yards back of them just enough for the attacker to think he could get across. As the formation would cross the fleche the guns would open up on them and/or the defender would attack. It was a great tactic and only the best units could win an attack across a fleche.

I would like to see melees with muliple attackers handled differently so that each stack is treated based on where it is coming from. Thus the fleche negative mod for the attacker would be applied ONLY to the guys going over it. Flank attacks would not be penalized for this and would gain the mod JUST for those units.

How often have you seen 100 guys attack a unit on the FLANK while the rest pour in from the FRONT. Those 100 guys could easily be stopped by a unit that denies its flank.


Oberst-Lt Wilhelm Peters
2nd Kuirassiers, Austrian Army


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