Napoleonic Wargame Club (NWC)

OK...

Waterloo is due out any day ( May 13 ) and already the Full Barrett is being dismissed.....

What is wrong witn it ?



Marechal John Corbin
Chief of Staff
La Grande Armee

They are afraid to see us win again and again...[:D]

<font color="green"> <b>Général de Division David Guégan Comte de Toulon, Duc de Nimes</b>
Co 11eme division
III Corps, AdN
Co Division d'Infanterie de la Jeune Garde, Garde Impériale


http://home.earthlink.net/~davidguegan/</font id="green">

Comte David Guegan,

Sir I like Your sign palms, crocodile remember me of the warm sunny
weather we soon will have also we who lives in the north of
europe but hopefully without crocodiles [8D]
That Crocodile have a smile around its mouth i am sure that she
have just eaten Napoleon Bonaparte and what is left of him is
dangling in the palm and when I think of that I like it even
more [^]

Regards
Ensign
Ola Berli
IR 18 d'Aspre
Imperial Austrian Army

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Ola Berli</i>
<br />
Comte David Guegan,

Sir I like Your sign palms, crocodile remember me of the warm sunny
weather we soon will have also we who lives in the north of
europe but hopefully without crocodiles [8D]
That Crocodile have a smile around its mouth i am sure that she
have just eaten Napoleon Bonaparte and what is left of him is
dangling in the palm and when I think of that I like it even
more [^]

Regards
Ensign
Ola Berli
IR 18 d'Aspre
Imperial Austrian Army


<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
[:D][:D] In fact, it is the symbol of the City I am coming from. I was born in Nimes (south of France) and the origine of the city goes back to the Roman Empire (Colony Nemausus). The land was given to some Roman soldiers who fought in Egypt during the succession of Cesar.
I guess they were nostalgic.
Beside that you are reading the picture wrong. The crocodile is guarding the Laurels of the Emperor.[;)][:D][:)]


<font color="green"> <b>Général de Division David Guégan Comte de Toulon, Duc de Nimes</b>
Co 11eme division
III Corps, AdN
Co Division d'Infanterie de la Jeune Garde, Garde Impériale


http://home.earthlink.net/~davidguegan/</font id="green">

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by John Corbin</i>
<br />OK...

Waterloo is due out any day ( May 13 ) and already the Full Barrett is being dismissed.....

What is wrong witn it ?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

It doesn't work [:D][:D][:D]

A reminder if you need one:-

Turn 11

French Infantry: 17,400
French Cavalry: 4,550
French Artillery: 142 (and about 10 more lost this phase) [:0][:0][:0]

Allied Infantry: 13,700
Allied Cavalry: 6,175
Allied Artillery: 47

And many, many routed French units.

The Prussians are being held off the map as they are not required to defeat this strategy[B)][B)]

Regards

Mark
VII Corps

Mark...

Would not the effectivness of any strategy not depend on who is command..... ?

Correct me if I am wrong but ..

1 - The French cannot win if the Prussians arrive before the allies
are dealt with ?

2 - There is not a lot time for great maneuvers prior to the Prussian
arrival ?

While I hear a lot that the Full Barrett is bad I am not hearing anything about a better strategy ...


Marechal John Corbin
Chief of Staff
La Grande Armee

John

A fair point.

Have you ever considered fighting the battle as a defensive battle for the French?

The game starts as a draw, (which is a better result than Napoleon achieved). The French position, although not as strong as Wellington's, lends itself to defence. With the higher quality units, better command structure and greater quantity of artillery, I think the French could put up a hell of a fight against the combined forces of Wellington and Blucher.

Wellington will not attack (leave his position) until the Prussians are arriving and, if Blucher is a little late, the Prussians will be in no shape to attack until quite well into the day.

I suspect that the French could achieve a victory by not attacking, just as well as by an early blitzing of Wellington's position.

Might be worth a try as an alternative!

Regards

Mark
VII Corps

Of course that would be totally contrary to the strategic purpose of the battle. Nappy had to knock out an allied army entirely and keep on marching to have any chance of winning the campaign. (Personally I think he never had one anyway, but that's a different matter.)

<center>Général de Division D.S. "Green Horse" Walter
Baron d'Empire, Duc des Pyramides
Commandant [url="http://home.arcor.de/dierk_Walter/NWC/3_VI_AdR_Home.htm"]3ème Division[/url], VIème Corps Bavarois, L'Armée du Rhin
Brigade de Tirailleurs de la Jeune Garde
</center>

John,
Perhaps I misread, but I think that the reason that the full Barrett was dismissed was that there are details in the new game that will either negate it, or at least force it to be recast to a fair extent. In particular, the game is using NRC movement settings (10MP infantry, so forth), and the lower movement, along with some other changes inherent to the HPS system as opposed to BG will force the Barrett to be recast somewhat.

I think that at its most basic level, the Full Barrett will still be a viable strategy, but a fair number of details will need to be rethought and adjusted.

Of course, that applies to the historical scenario. The campaign scenarios will create a new set of strategic considerations that will have undetermined, but serious effects.

FML Gary McClellan
1st Jäger Bn
Chief of Staff Imperial Austrian Army

Gary hits it right on the head. As I pointed out the MP rate is HIGHLY decreased for at least the first 7 turns of the battle and that is probably going to be enough to dull its effects.

Secondly, the HPS system, while allowing for blitzkriegs too, doesnt allow the cavalry to be as potent in my opinion. I can remember some charges by Paco being effective but in comparing my games of NIR with NRC, and BGW with those of Eckmuhl there is a real difference.

You cant move your cavalry and then charge with them. Thus you have to have many regiments AIMED at different angles in order to hit a target. Your opponent can simply get out of its charge cone.

As was mentioned before, a French defensive battle is not a bad idea. In BGW the French HAVE to attack in order to win. Why that is remains a mystery. After all if Napoleon wins a battle any way he can what is the difference? If he can maul Blucher wouldnt that have had the same effect? Thus I saw a Frenchman mass his forces and wipe out the Prussians and keep the British at bay. And it worked too!

The French have a clear artillery superiority. Range and effect.

Overall I would say that the benefits of the Full Barrett (gaining VP locations before the enemy arrives) will not work as well as the locations are not worth as much anymore.

And if the French want to run away to Paris well we wont stop them! [:D]

Oberst Wilhelm Peters
2nd Kuirassiers, Reserve Korps, Austrian Army

Gary/Bill

I understood Bill's original comments about MP and it's affect on the tactic in question....

My point was ( although not made clear initially ) that the tactic in question is trashed in BGW and I could not understand why.

Mark makes a good point about trying a defensive battle and I will have to investigate this and try it....

Marechal John Corbin
Chief of Staff
La Grande Armee

John,
My apologies, I misunderstood.

As to the complaints about the strategy in BGW, the only real valid complaint is if one is of the more or less "purist" school in terms of trying to fight a historical battle, but that's another issue entirely.

ETA: to be clear, even the old dispute between purists and "push the engine types" isn't really about the FB, just that in some games, that old issue can be pulled back.

FML Gary McClellan
1st Jäger Bn
Chief of Staff Imperial Austrian Army

Chaps,

I think the main problem with "The Full Barrett" is it's effect on the Allied players willingness to play any Waterloo scenarios [:0]! We're all here to play games and, hopefully, enjoy them win or lose .... and I'm always happy to lose to a good player (see my record) [:I] . The problem is I, and I should think a high percentage of Allied Players, are not willing to play a Waterloo scenario as we already know the outcome ... there's just no point and we all lose out.

Come on guys .... think about it !



Lt.Gen. Tony Dobson
II Corps Commander
Anglo-Dutch Army
NWC President

I think John Corbin has made the central point. The full Barrett was a solution for a particular set of conditions. This is a new game and the strategic dynamics and the requirements of the game engine will determine the tactics to be used. After all, the fact Blucher was able to intervene at all was the result of a series of stuffs up by Napoleon (immediately after Ligny) and Grouchy, in mishandling the pursuit. With the 'strategic' options in a HPS game, chances are that combination of events won't happen again.

Capitaine Neville Worland
7ème Régiment de Dragons
Ier Corps de Réserve de Cavalerie
Army du Nord

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Tony Dobson</i>
The problem is I, and I should think a high percentage of Allied Players, are not willing to play a Waterloo scenario as we already know the outcome ... there's just no point and we all lose out.

Lt.Gen. Tony Dobson
II Corps Commander
Anglo-Dutch Army
NWC President
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

And I always Thought that it was a very hard game to win as French... Applying or not the Full Barrett strategy. So, I guess that it is always a mater of fog of war... As French you worry because you think that your enemy may have always more reserve behind and when you look at the fatigue level of your troops you wonder how you are going to survive to the Prussians arrival.
As Anglo-Dutch-Belgian-etc... you wonder if you will still have some people standing when the Prussians will arrive. [:)]

<font color="green"> <b>Général de Division David Guégan Comte de Toulon, Duc de Nimes</b>
Co 11eme division
III Corps, AdN
Co Division d'Infanterie de la Jeune Garde, Garde Impériale


http://home.earthlink.net/~davidguegan/</font id="green">