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Gary McClellan

Post subject:

Posted: Mon May 30, 2005 10:21 am

Joined: Sat Jul 14, 2001 12:13 am
Posts: 590
Location: USA

I guess we shall have to pass then, as I've retired my BG disks and gone to HPS only.

Oh well, just know that the Austrians do not run like cowards, our uniforms are white, not yellow.

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Mark Eason
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Gary McClellan
 My lads are waiting there for you, if you are so inclined.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Much as it pains me, I probably do not have the wherewithal to meet your lads as I am limited to the Battleground fields.

If you are prepared to meet on any of these, please name your field, and any limitations you may wish to apply.

Regards

Mark
VII Corps
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

FML Gary McClellan
1st JÃ¤ger Bn
Chief of Staff Imperial Austrian Army

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Mark Eason

Post subject:

Posted: Mon May 30, 2005 10:37 am

Joined: Fri May 25, 2001 1:53 pm
Posts: 283
Location: United Kingdom

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Gary McClellan
 I guess we shall have to pass then, as I've retired my BG disks and gone to HPS only.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

As I feared would be the case. Maybe someday I will resurrect my Eckmuhl disc, but it seems unlikely.

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Oh well, just know that the Austrians do not run like cowards, our uniforms are white, not yellow.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

A most convenient colour it is too. How quickly one can remove a jacket, attach it to the bayonnet of a musket, and wave it in an act of surrender [;)]

Salute

Mark
VII Corps

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SLudwig

Post subject:

Posted: Mon May 30, 2005 3:44 pm

Joined: Thu Jul 17, 2003 10:08 am
Posts: 3728

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by john sheffield
 Gentlemen please,
The Allies and that's all of them, shouldn't pit themselves against one another. All the members of the various alliances throughout the period contained good,bad and indifferent qualities and in the end it was a combination of those qualities and Nappy's errors among other things that eventually wore down,destroyed and finally got rid of Bonaparte for which the majority of the peoples of Europe were eventually very grateful.

Make the correct decision Lord Eddrington and enlist with the Allies.

2nd Lieutenant John Sheffield
1st Btn/91 foot
[Argyllshire Highlanders]
6th British Bgd/4th Inf Div/
II Corps/Anglo-Allied Army.

"Four things come back not: The spoken word; The sped arrow; Time past; and Opportunity." 
Caliph Omar I, ad 582-644.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Heear hear!! I say good terms. We Allies will only defeat the fool frogs a foot when we are united. Choose an Allied Army, does not matter which one. Just not those frogs!! [:D]

<center>
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[url="http://www.scott-ludwig.com"]Generallieutenant Scott Ludwig[/url]

Kommandeur
3. Infanterie-Brigade and Aide-du-Camp
I. Armee Korps
Heer am Niederrhein
[url="http://www.prussianarmy.com"]PreuÃŸische Armee[/url]

Kommandeur
Garde-Artillerie
[url="http://scott-ludwig.com/NWC/Prussia/Garde.htm"]PreuÃŸische Armee Garde-Brigade[/url]

GroÃŸHerzog von Saxe-Weimar
(Grand Duke of Saxe-Weimar)
</center>

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SLudwig

Post subject:

Posted: Mon May 30, 2005 4:12 pm

Joined: Thu Jul 17, 2003 10:08 am
Posts: 3728

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Mark Eason
 Now, back to Herr Ludwig and his Prussian propaganda, for it can be considered no less. The Spanish did not defeat us, they did not even have an army worthy of sharing the field with us. More irritating than Cossacks yes, but they had no honour, contenting themselves to attack our small detachments and supply lines.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Had I mentioned Spain at all no!! I did not. But of course you wasted whole Armies in that land the way you did in Russia!! [;)][:D] The Cossacks did their job and the French deserved it!! Is it any different from your cavalry doing the same??

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Mark Eason
 The disaster in Russia was not of Napoloen's making. It was brought about by the weather, something that nearly 200 years on we are unable to predict. Whilst opponents label him as a deserter from that army, as head of state he had little option but to return to France and begin to raise a new army for the defence of the French empire.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Of course it was. As Commander of the Armies he is in charge of overseeing the whole operation, and was overzealous and had no appreciation for the Russian sphere. Blame rests solely with him for not providing for his men. And yet he abandons them on many an occasion and flees back to let them rot. Again how does a man loose 600,000 men??

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Mark Eason
 And, before anyone raises the sprectre of him bleeding France dry of its youth, I believe I am correct that of the 4 major powers involved on the continent, France had the lowest loss from the wars as a percentage of its population.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

That is only because she had deep pockets to keeping throwing people at us and getting them killed. [:D][;)]

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Mark Eason
 Campaign of 1812 - Victor was the weather<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

That and poor planning and overzealous mania.

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Mark Eason
 Battle of Nations - Oh dear, oh dear. I beleive that the Prussians presented fewer battalions or squadrons than even their Austrian neighbours and half the number provided by Russia. Granted, their role in this battle may have been more significant than that of Sweden or the Congreve rocket battery provided by the generosity of the English, but to claim this as a major Prussian contribution stretches reality a little too far[:p]<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Downplay as you wish, they still carried the day and, Prussia was a smaller nation than the other two. But needless to say we shedded off the French rather quick and we did walk into Paris in the end did we not?? [:D] Twice I may add!!

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Mark Eason
 Battle of Waterloo - arrived in time to join Wellington's celebration yet claim victory for themselves.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Trivial, trivial. We crushed straight into the rear of France and destroyed a protion of your beloved Guard!! Our arrival forced your Emperor to throw your Guard, your best troops in a hurray at the enemy lines for them to die and be killed. Murder I cry, Murder!!

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Mark Eason
 Remember, blue is the new black, as we say in Paris[:D]<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Uh..black and blue in 1814 and '15!![:D][:D]

<center>
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[url="http://www.scott-ludwig.com"]Generallieutenant Scott Ludwig[/url]

Kommandeur
3. Infanterie-Brigade and Aide-du-Camp
I. Armee Korps
Heer am Niederrhein
[url="http://www.prussianarmy.com"]PreuÃŸische Armee[/url]

Kommandeur
Garde-Artillerie
[url="http://scott-ludwig.com/NWC/Prussia/Garde.htm"]PreuÃŸische Armee Garde-Brigade[/url]

GroÃŸHerzog von Saxe-Weimar
(Grand Duke of Saxe-Weimar)
</center>

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SLudwig

Post subject:

Posted: Mon May 30, 2005 4:13 pm

Joined: Thu Jul 17, 2003 10:08 am
Posts: 3728

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Mark Eason
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by john sheffield

"Four things come back not: The spoken word; The sped arrow; Time past; and Opportunity." 
Caliph Omar I, ad 582-644.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Alas, had the good Caliph lived in later times he would have had the chance to correct himself;

"Five things come back not: The spoken word; The sped arrow; Time past; Opportunity; and a routed Prussian battalion." 

[:D][:D][:D]

Mark
VII Corps
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Or shall we say:
"Five things come back not: The spoken word; The sped arrow; Time past; Opportunity; and a Empire and it's Emperor.

<center>
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[url="http://www.scott-ludwig.com"]Generallieutenant Scott Ludwig[/url]

Kommandeur
3. Infanterie-Brigade and Aide-du-Camp
I. Armee Korps
Heer am Niederrhein
[url="http://www.prussianarmy.com"]PreuÃŸische Armee[/url]

Kommandeur
Garde-Artillerie
[url="http://scott-ludwig.com/NWC/Prussia/Garde.htm"]PreuÃŸische Armee Garde-Brigade[/url]

GroÃŸHerzog von Saxe-Weimar
(Grand Duke of Saxe-Weimar)
</center>

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John Sheffield

Post subject:

Posted: Tue May 31, 2005 7:42 am

Joined: Tue Jul 22, 2003 4:04 am
Posts: 334
Location: United Kingdom

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Mark Eason
 The disaster in Russia was not of Napoloen's making. It was brought about by the weather, something that nearly 200 years on we are unable to predict. Whilst opponents label him as a deserter from that army, as head of state he had little option but to return to France and begin to raise a new army for the defence of the French empire.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Of course it was. As Commander of the Armies he is in charge of overseeing the whole operation, and was overzealous and had no appreciation for the Russian sphere. Blame rests solely with him for not providing for his men. And yet he abandons them on many an occasion and flees back to let them rot. Again how does a man loose 600,000 men??
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I wholehartedly agree Scott. The didaster, for that's what it ultimately was, was down to Bonaparte and his assumption that by starting off towards a vast country like Russia in June he would be able to locate the various armies, bring them to battle AND defeat them before winter set in. I mean.....what debacle.....WINTER in Russia. Surely even just one brain cell fighting against overblown self importance and imaginary invincibility should have got the message through that catastrophe loomed. His army was also so far spread out from front to rear that a huge portion of the troops at the rear were to die of hunger with numerous elements [20% to 30% of the original total] deserting to search for food before ever reaching any forward supply that there may have been. It's all a bit simplistic to put the blame on " THE WEATHER " as if the possibility of bad weather was something that Bonaparte could not have foreseen and that it just happened to spoil a nice jaunt into Russia.

2nd Lieutenant John Sheffield
1st Btn/91 foot
[Argyllshire Highlanders]
6th British Bgd/4th Inf Div/
II Corps/Anglo-Allied Army.

"Four things come back not: The spoken word; The sped arrow; Time past; and Opportunity." 
Caliph Omar I, ad 582-644.

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Mark Eason

Post subject:

Posted: Tue May 31, 2005 10:45 am

Joined: Fri May 25, 2001 1:53 pm
Posts: 283
Location: United Kingdom

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by john sheffield
I wholehartedly agree Scott. The didaster, for that's what it ultimately was, was down to Bonaparte and his assumption that by starting off towards a vast country like Russia in June he would be able to locate the various armies, bring them to battle AND defeat them before winter set in.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Napoleon made the mistake of allowing himself to be diplomatically manoeuvred by Alexander into a position that made invasion inevitable. He found himself backed into a corner from which he had to invade or cede Poland and possibly Prussia to Russia. Invasion was therefore his only course of action, (would we expect anything less from a career military man?).

The principal Russian armies were well within his reach. From the diplomatic posturing that had been coming out of Russia, Napoleon had no reason to suspect that they would not give battle. That they withdrew from day one, applying a scorched earth policy as they went, (up to and including Moscow), was hardly to be expected. On the rare occasions that the Russians offered resistance, they were routinely defeated, Krasnoi, Polotzk, Smolensk, Valoutina-Gora, Shevradino and Borodino.

While people refer to the loss of half a million Frenchmen during the campaign of 1812; it is less often mentioned that Russia lost a comparable number throughout the campaign.

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">I mean.....what debacle.....WINTER in Russia. Surely even just one brain cell fighting against overblown self importance and imaginary invincibility should have got the message through that catastrophe loomed.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

IIRC the temperature plummeted earlier than usual in 1812, with January temperatures being attained in late November / early December. Not the biggest factor in the army's losses by any stretch of the imagination, disease, desertion and casualties (dead, wounded and captured), all doubtless contributed more. However, it was the temperature that finished the French army off.

Could this have been predicted? Possibly. Just as they might have predicted that the harvest to the East of the Niemen would be two weeks late that year, or that they would cross the river into a violent hailstorm and several days of torrential rain. All of which took their toll.

It's a funny old thing weather, 200 years later and I suspect that we are not significantly better at predicting it than they were then.[:(]

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">His army was also so far spread out from front to rear that a huge portion of the troops at the rear were to die of hunger with numerous elements [20% to 30% of the original total] deserting to search for food before ever reaching any forward supply that there may have been.[<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Extended lines and a hungry rear echelon were an inevitable consequence of pursuing a foe that had elected to destroy its property as it retreated. That these men were not supplied from the west was not something Napoleon at the front could resolve. Local commanders could and should have taken responsibility for addressing this.

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"> It's all a bit simplistic to put the blame on " THE WEATHER " as if the possibility of bad weather was something that Bonaparte could not have foreseen and that it just happened to spoil a nice jaunt into Russia.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

This is true. Far more men were lost on the way to Moscow than on the way home. In fact cold may not have been the most significant contribution to losses during the retreat. However, it was the cold that finished off the remnants of the army. Had this not happened, would Napoleon have remained longer with the army, taken winter quarters with them, I doubt it. Even if he had brought an army of 100,000 back to Poland, he needed to raise an army for 1813. This could only be done from France.

Napoleon's biggest error of the campaign was to think that taking Moscow would cause the Russians to seek terms. There was no reason to believe this would happen, especially since taking of Vienna in prior campaigns had no such effect on the Austrians.

And, of course, if Napoleon had remained with his army and perished in Russia or Poland, in Britain we would be short of a national hero and a name for a railway station - so a little more gratitude if you please[:D][:D][;)]

Mark
VII Corps

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John Sheffield

Post subject:

Posted: Wed Jun 01, 2005 7:33 am

Joined: Tue Jul 22, 2003 4:04 am
Posts: 334
Location: United Kingdom

quote;
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The principal Russian armies were well within his reach. From the diplomatic posturing that had been coming out of Russia, Napoleon had no reason to suspect that they would not give battle. That they withdrew from day one, applying a scorched earth policy as they went, (up to and including Moscow), was hardly to be expected. On the rare occasions that the Russians offered resistance, they were routinely defeated, Krasnoi, Polotzk, Smolensk, Valoutina-Gora, Shevradino and Borodino.

IIRC the temperature plummeted earlier than usual in 1812, with January temperatures being attained in late November / early December. Not the biggest factor in the army's losses by any stretch of the imagination, disease, desertion and casualties (dead, wounded and captured), all doubtless contributed more. However, it was the temperature that finished the French army off.

It's a funny old thing weather, 200 years later and I suspect that we are not significantly better at predicting it than they were then.[:(]

Extended lines and a hungry rear echelon were an inevitable consequence of pursuing a foe that had elected to destroy its property as it retreated. That these men were not supplied from the west was not something Napoleon at the front could resolve. Local commanders could and should have taken responsibility for addressing this.

Mark
VII Corps
[/quote]
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Although the Russians were within his reach surely it should not have been presumed that they would stand and fight or that they would just give way and allow the enemy to feed off the land and just to have given some thought to this and planned accordingly would possibly have brought more success. As for the weather, it is not uncommon even today for Russia to have an early and severe winter and they obviously occurred in the 19th centuary too. Once again plan with that possibility in mind. No supplies for the men at the rear. A main cause of this was the scorched earth policy. Again we are back to planning for such an eventuality.

Mark,

My main points still stand. Bonaparte lead his vast army into an even more vast country and the further he went the more they would have to depend on local produce. It is incredible that he appears to carry this out without any plans or sufficient time scale to allow for an early winter or the Russians refusing to meet him until they had to or for a Russian scorched earth policy. He appears to think that it will all be over in a few months. Where have we heard that before with regards to Russia?

My good Lord Eddrington, you have certainly stirred up a hornets nest.[:D] I hope after all this debate you have made a decision about which side to enlist on.[B)]

2nd Lieutenant John Sheffield
1st Btn/91 foot
[Argyllshire Highlanders]
6th British Bgd/4th Inf Div/
II Corps/Anglo-Allied Army.

"Four things come back not: The spoken word; The sped arrow; Time past; and Opportunity." 
Caliph Omar I, ad 582-644.

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