Napoleonic Wargame Club (NWC)

I was curious about something and fired up a game against the AI.

In the game I moved all my guys ( I played the allies ) as far away
from a particular object ive hex as possible to see how long it would take the french to grab it. I moved away so I would not ( under fog of war ) see the French units.

It took a few turns but eventually the objective hex switched to French ownership even though I could not see the unit(s) that actually occupied the hex.

My question is this:

Would the fact that I can see the objective hex switch to French ownership ( french flag now in the hex ) be a violation of Fog of war ?

I mean it kinda gives away the position of the French troops, no ?




Marechal John Corbin
Chief of Staff
La Grande Armee

I found myself thinking about that myself the other day. IMO, you are right on.

Combat Mission handles it differently with the flag being just a question mark at the beginning of the scenario. Question mark flags presuppose that the victory hex can be neutral, whereas with our game, it has to one of the two sides from the very beginning of the scenario.

<center>Lieutenant Rick Motko
1er Bataillon, 33° Régiment d'Infanterie de Ligne
2eme Brigade, 11eme division
IIIe corps, Armée du Nord</center>

Actually, I think CM takes it a step further.....I seem to recall that control of the VP location is only maintained so long as you have a unit in proximity to the flag and it remains uncontested. If you move away - or an equal enemy force comes nearby, it reverts to "?" status.

On the big map scenarios I have created I have moved the objective hexes off the roads, where it would force a player tot ake them - or totaly disrupt their line of march. This way it's up to the players if they want to tip their hand or not.

Gen. Hamilton, Baron d'Barbancon
21st Division
VII Corps, ADR

Saxon Leib-Garde, de la Jeune Garde, Garde Impériale

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Rich Hamilton</i>
<br />On the big map scenarios I have created I have moved the objective hexes off the roads, where it would force a player tot ake them - or totaly disrupt their line of march. This way it's up to the players if they want to tip their hand or not.

Gen. Hamilton, Baron d'Barbancon
21st Division
VII Corps, ADR

Saxon Leib-Garde, de la Jeune Garde, Garde Impériale




<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Rich...

I think it would nbe better if the hexs were subject to the FOG of war visability ... Think about it this way...

It is midnight and the normal visability is 1 hex.... How can you justify being able to see that you have lost an objective hex simply
because a french flag has appeared over it ? With this change in ownership you are now topped off as to your opponent is up to.

I think an engine change is required.


Marechal John Corbin
Chief of Staff
La Grande Armee

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Rich Hamilton</i>
<br />On the big map scenarios I have created I have moved the objective hexes off the roads, where it would force a player tot ake them - or totaly disrupt their line of march. This way it's up to the players if they want to tip their hand or not.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Great idea ... or was it my idea in the first place? Anyway, I like it. [8D]

<center>Général de Division D.S. "Green Horse" Walter
Baron d'Empire, Duc des Pyramides
Commandant de la [url="http://home.arcor.de/dierk_Walter/NWC/3_VI_AdR_Home.htm"]3ème Division[/url], VIème Corps Bavarois, L'Armée du Rhin
Commandant l'Ecole de Mars, L'Armée du Rhin
Commandant de la Brigade de Tirailleurs de la Jeune Garde
</center>

While there is the usual problem between "immediate" and "delayed" information (we get too much too fast), I don't have a real problem with the way that obj hexes are handled.

The games don't really give us the usual round of distant scouts, baggage guards, messengers and the like. Since objective hexes are generally key points on a field, it's reasonable to say that our "seeing" these things is an abstraction of those guys at "work"

Probably the larger issues is "not all objective hexes are created equal". There are some that you can fairly expect you'd find out about (a major road junction on your own Line of Communication), and others that more problematic (a hill a few miles off, and not on your LOC)

In the end, it's an abstraction, but not a big thing.

Of course, I tend not to pay close attention to VP hexes anyway. I figure my job is to beat (or lose to) the enemy army.

FML Gary McClellan
Generalissimus
Imperial Austrian Army

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by D.S. Walter</i>
<br /><blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Rich Hamilton</i>
<br />On the big map scenarios I have created I have moved the objective hexes off the roads, where it would force a player tot ake them - or totaly disrupt their line of march. This way it's up to the players if they want to tip their hand or not.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Great idea ... or was it my idea in the first place? Anyway, I like it. [8D]
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Probably yours, I forget! [:0]

Gen. Hamilton, Baron d'Barbancon
21st Division
VII Corps, ADR

Saxon Leib-Garde, de la Jeune Garde, Garde Impériale

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by John Corbin</i>
<br /><blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Rich Hamilton</i>
<br />On the big map scenarios I have created I have moved the objective hexes off the roads, where it would force a player tot ake them - or totaly disrupt their line of march. This way it's up to the players if they want to tip their hand or not.

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Rich...

I think it would nbe better if the hexs were subject to the FOG of war visability ... Think about it this way...

It is midnight and the normal visability is 1 hex.... How can you justify being able to see that you have lost an objective hex simply
because a french flag has appeared over it ? With this change in ownership you are now topped off as to your opponent is up to.

I think an engine change is required.

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Well, I don't see it happening any time soon...as in relation to the other items we're trying to get done this ranks pretty low on the list. Sorry! Not saying I won't try on the next go around, but certainly not anything John would just program on the fly...

Regards,
Rich


Gen. Hamilton, Baron d'Barbancon
21st Division
VII Corps, ADR

Saxon Leib-Garde, de la Jeune Garde, Garde Impériale

Anything that leads to adding fog of war such as having smoke and limited visibility is a fine idea.

Just one of those things that I didnt want to bother John with as other things are higher on my list to try and promote with him.

The First Blitz also has an idea that I would have liked to have seen in our series: the objective gets you points each turn (by toggle switch by the designer) you hold the location.

This means that a 25 point objective could net you 500 points eventually. These would only be used in certain scenario types and probably not anywhere near as often as the default method.

Who will step up and suggest these to John?

Oberst Wilhelm Peters
2nd Kuirassiers, Reserve Korps, Austrian Army

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by John Corbin</i>
<br />I was curious about something and fired up a game against the AI.

In the game I moved all my guys ( I played the allies ) as far away
from a particular object ive hex as possible to see how long it would take the french to grab it. I moved away so I would not ( under fog of war ) see the French units.

It took a few turns but eventually the objective hex switched to French ownership even though I could not see the unit(s) that actually occupied the hex.

My question is this:

Would the fact that I can see the objective hex switch to French ownership ( french flag now in the hex ) be a violation of Fog of war ?

I mean it kinda gives away the position of the French troops, no ?

Marechal John Corbin
Chief of Staff
La Grande Armee
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

I do not see a problem with the game engine. The test you ran was an improper test. I understand why you did it, but in doing so you threw in an abstract condition for which the game engine was not programed. The fact that a given hex is an objective, presupposes that since it is an objective it will be defended. Presuming that, means that once it is lost, you would know about it fairly quickly. When you moved as far from it as you could, you acted contrary to the way the game, and the whole purpose of objectives, is designed.
On the old Talonsoft board we had a very long winded discussion about the pros and cons of objectives being in the game. Nobody particularly liked them, but given the scope of the game, they were an necessary thing.
The games do not allow long term objectives, so some short term objective had to be in place, otherwise both sides could pull a Wellington, set up behind a ridge, and wait for the other guy to attach him. Aside from the historical point of a particular spot being fought over (Hugomont for example), for game purposes objectives force one side or the other, or both to commit to battle. For example: Historically, Napoleon wanted to capture Brussels. Waterloo occurred because that is where Wellington chose to block the road to Brussels. In order to get to there (Brussels), Napoleon was forced to attack. Thus the objective hexes on the northern half of the Waterloo map artificially simulate Napoleon's desire to reach Brussels.
Perhaps a better way to apply victory would be the old Avalon Hill Panzer Blitz method, of awarding victory points for moving your units "off the board". As it is now, the French don't have the option of swinging west of Brain l'Allued (or however you spell it), they are forced to proceed along main road, to capture the specified hexes they need, to get the victory points needed to win the game. By giving point for simply moving off the board’s northern edge, it forces the French to hop northward, anywhere they choose, and the Anglo-Allied Army to interpose itself between them and the north edge, regardless of the French avenue of advance, rather than defending the hexes that have been set up along the main route north. This would force the issue of reconnaisance, as well as combat, and eliminate the telltale objective flags. Also it would have the side effect of forcing the attacker to not expend troops for the sole purpose of capturing an objective for the victory points. He would want to minimize his casualties so he could move them off the board to gain points. No more expending 500 men (20 victory points lost) to capture that objective hex worth 100 points (net gain of 80). With the PB method you loose 20 points and gain nothing.


Cadet William Davis
Royal Military Academy

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by WillieD13</i>
The games do not allow long term objectives, so some short term objective had to be in place, otherwise both sides could pull a Wellington, set up behind a ridge, and wait for the other guy to attach him.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

William

This is not correct. It is the starting score that decides whether a player needs to attack or not, objective hexes are only used to steer the course of a battle. If the game starts with one player or the other in minor or major defeat, they must attack to be able to win the game.

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Aside from the historical point of a particular spot being fought over (Hugomont for example), for game purposes objectives force one side or the other, or both to commit to battle. For example: Historically, Napoleon wanted to capture Brussels. Waterloo occurred because that is where Wellington chose to block the road to Brussels. In order to get to there (Brussels), Napoleon was forced to attack. Thus the objective hexes on the northern half of the Waterloo map artificially simulate Napoleon's desire to reach Brussels.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Was Brussels Napoleon's principal objective, or was that a consequence of victory over the Prussians and Anglo-Allied armies - which was what he really wanted to achieve.

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Perhaps a better way to apply victory would be the old Avalon Hill Panzer Blitz method, of awarding victory points for moving your units "off the board". As it is now, the French don't have the option of swinging west of Brain l'Allued (or however you spell it), they are forced to proceed along main road, to capture the specified hexes they need, to get the victory points needed to win the game. By giving point for simply moving off the board’s northern edge, it forces the French to hop northward, anywhere they choose, and the Anglo-Allied Army to interpose itself between them and the north edge, regardless of the French avenue of advance, rather than defending the hexes that have been set up along the main route north. This would force the issue of reconnaisance, as well as combat, and eliminate the telltale objective flags. Also it would have the side effect of forcing the attacker to not expend troops for the sole purpose of capturing an objective for the victory points. He would want to minimize his casualties so he could move them off the board to gain points. No more expending 500 men (20 victory points lost) to capture that objective hex worth 100 points (net gain of 80). With the PB method you loose 20 points and gain nothing.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Of the objective hexes I personally favour the exit hexes. Any other piece of terrain only has the value that it gives to my army in defence or deprives my opponent. I have never understood the reason for making a hex worth so many points. Any piece of ground only really has value if both sides want it. By including high value objective hexes this forces both sides to 'want' that terrain, and when some of them are worth as much as a division, I find this a nonsense - but that's me[:D]


Regarding the tripping of flags in objective hexes indicating the presence of the enemy, this could be a very useful addition to the game. Armies were forever receiving inaccurate information from locals - amazing the tales that will be told for a few coins.

So, send forth a squadron or two, to trip those hexes in a direction your army is not going so that the enemy will think that you are going that way. Build some additional units into the OOB for civilians on each side, no combat value, that can roam the map tripping the objective hexes for you - only need a few of them and th eobjective hexes of course should be low value in this case, but it would keep players guessing what was really happening!

Regards

Mark
VII Corps

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Mark Eason</i>
Was Brussels Napoleon's principal objective, or was that a consequence of victory over the Prussians and Anglo-Allied armies - which was what he really wanted to achieve.<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">

Yes. The objective was Brussels, for two reasons. Napoleon did want to keep the Anglo-Allied army, and the Prussian army apart, hence his decision to attack the way he did, at Ligny, i.e. drive the Prussians eastward, to protect their line of supply, and the A-A army westward for the same reason. Secondly, Brussels happened to be where King Louis the Fat Boy was holed up after being driven out of Paris upon Napoleon’s return from Elba. If Napoleon was able to capture Louis, so much for the Bourbon’s, and their rule of France.

[quote] Of the objective hexes I personally favour the exit hexes. Any other piece of terrain only has the value that it gives to my army in defence or deprives my opponent. I have never understood the reason for making a hex worth so many points. Any piece of ground only really has value if both sides want it. By including high value objective hexes this forces both sides to 'want' that terrain, and when some of them are worth as much as a division, I find this a nonsense - but that's me[:D] <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

I agree, exit hexes serve the purpose of the army marching through to their eventual objective, however specific hexes along the way also serve valuable tactical purposes, and in and of themselves are worthy of capture. Any hilltop with a commanding view of the main route of march, or any walled chateau (think the word Fortification) with a line of sight to the main road, becomes a potential enemy strong hold. Imangine La Haye Sainte garrisoned by 600-1000 skirmisher rifles, with a battery of guns. Quite the thorn in any French plans to march up the road. Hence it must be eliminated, and held, hence it has tactical importance, and the points applied to it reflect that.

Whenever I put together a DYO scenario, I look for these two factors when creating objective hexes. I use exit hexes as the big point getters, with tactically important objectives (chateaus, bridges, towns/villages) along the route of march. Secondarily are significant terrain features, such as hilltops with pleasant views of the parade route, or fords near otherwise icky terrain. Holding the ford forces the parade into costly and/or difficult detours. I also apply the points such that capturing ALL the objectives will only marginally (50-100 pts) give a Major Victory. That way the attacker still has to risk losing if he does not properly conserve his troops.


[quote] Build some additional units into the OOB for civilians on each side, no combat value, that can roam the map tripping the objective hexes for you - only need a few of them and th eobjective hexes of course should be low value in this case, but it would keep players guessing what was really happening!

Regards

Mark
VII Corps
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

An interesting concept, but the game engine does not support it very well. Any civilians encountered would be friendly or not. Morals and ethics aside, the Not’s would draw fire, as they are still going to provide victory points equivilent to infantry.


Cadet William Davis
Royal Military Academy

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by WillieD13</i>
Yes. The objective was Brussels, for two reasons. Napoleon did want to keep the Anglo-Allied army, and the Prussian army apart, hence his decision to attack the way he did, at Ligny, i.e. drive the Prussians eastward, to protect their line of supply, and the A-A army westward for the same reason. Secondly, Brussels happened to be where King Louis the Fat Boy was holed up after being driven out of Paris upon Napoleon’s return from Elba. If Napoleon was able to capture Louis, so much for the Bourbon’s, and their rule of France.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

I don't think Napoleon was taking 120,000 men to Brussels to capture Louis. He had run from Paris and would have done the same from Brussels. Napoleon was in that part of the world to defeat the Prussians and the Anglo-Allied armies using one of his standard strategies of adopting the central positon. That Brussels would fall to him had he been victorious was a secondary issue.

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">I agree, exit hexes serve the purpose of the army marching through to their eventual objective, however specific hexes along the way also serve valuable tactical purposes, and in and of themselves are worthy of capture. Any hilltop with a commanding view of the main route of march,...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

has the value of the view it affords, nothing more.

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">...or any walled chateau (think the word Fortification) with a line of sight to the main road, becomes a potential enemy strong hold.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

has the value of the defensive benefit afforded to the occupants, nothing more.

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Imangine La Haye Sainte garrisoned by 600-1000 skirmisher rifles, with a battery of guns. Quite the thorn in any French plans to march up the road. Hence it must be eliminated, and held, hence it has tactical importance, and the points applied to it reflect that.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

But only if the enemy come that way. And the only reason that the enemy come that way is because there is a hex, the ownership of which is worth a division of men and it would probably not cost a division of men to capture it.

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Whenever I put together a DYO scenario, I look for these two factors when creating objective hexes. I use exit hexes as the big point getters, with tactically important objectives (chateaus, bridges, towns/villages) along the route of march. Secondarily are significant terrain features, such as hilltops with pleasant views of the parade route, or fords near otherwise icky terrain. Holding the ford forces the parade into costly and/or difficult detours. I also apply the points such that capturing ALL the objectives will only marginally (50-100 pts) give a Major Victory. That way the attacker still has to risk losing if he does not properly conserve his troops.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Good to hear that you use low value objective hexes, but personally I would still toss them out altogether. For example, a farm (chateau) may be useful to me because I can anchor a flank to it because of its strong defensive value and that will help protect me from a flanking movement by my opponent. Make the farm an objective hex worth a brigade of infantry points and it is no longer about using the building to protect my flank, but using my units to protect my ownership of the farm.

I want to go onto a hill top because of the view that it gives me, I want to defend a hill top to prevent my opponent gaining that vantage point and the view that it offers, not because it has been given a point value.

Defending a ford has the value of the time it buys me while my opponent must fight for the crossing or make a large detour. I should not gain any more than that for defending it.

Exit hexes tend to be the best as they require a commitment to reduce your available strength to gain the points. However, they too must be used with care. I recently came across a scenario in which a weak force, with no chance of defeating the stronger opposition, started the scenario with a draw. They could pull all their troops off the map in the first three turns, with no engagement by the enemy possible, and maintain the draw status - the best result they could get. Someone invested a lot of time and effort to create the map, the oob and the scenario only to generate a 3 turn evacuation [;)]


<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">An interesting concept, but the game engine does not support it very well. Any civilians encountered would be friendly or not. Morals and ethics aside, the Not’s would draw fire, as they are still going to provide victory points equivilent to infantry.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Put half a dozen 25 strength (or lower if allowed in the HPS games), pike armed Q1 skirmishers into the OOB of each side to represent these members of the populace. They can not do any significant harm, can not approach cavalry, and they are worth about 6 VPs in total. No big deal.

Regards

Mark
VII Corps

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Mark Eason</i>

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">I agree, exit hexes serve the purpose of the army marching through to their eventual objective, however specific hexes along the way also serve valuable tactical purposes, and in and of themselves are worthy of capture. Any hilltop with a commanding view of the main route of march,...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

has the value of the view it affords, nothing more.

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">...or any walled chateau (think the word Fortification) with a line of sight to the main road, becomes a potential enemy strong hold.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

has the value of the defensive benefit afforded to the occupants, nothing more.

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Imangine La Haye Sainte garrisoned by 600-1000 skirmisher rifles, with a battery of guns. Quite the thorn in any French plans to march up the road. Hence it must be eliminated, and held, hence it has tactical importance, and the points applied to it reflect that.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

[quote] But only if the enemy come that way. And the only reason that the enemy come that way is because there is a hex, the ownership of which is worth a division of men and it would probably not cost a division of men to capture it.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

I do agree with you to a point, but the main issue here is why the victory points are applied to a specific hex. It is because the ownership of that hex has tactical importance. La Haye Saint is adjacent to the main road. Sure the French could swing wide around it, out of range of any fire from defenders, but it is inconvenient to do so. An army on the march does not want to deviate from a road and go tramping through fields and hedges if they can avoid it. It slows them down, and can cause disorder. Additionally, they do not want to leave an active enemy just off their flank, where he can poke his nose and muzzle out to make a nusaince of himself. They will want him eliminated. The same goes for hilltops. A nice place for observation, and for placement of heavy artillery. Again, you want him off that hilltop. True, you want your enemy eliminated regardless of the terrain he is in, however hilltops give view points for spotting, and walled chateauxs are a bit tougher nuts to crack, which gives them value of their own.

Cadet William Davis
Royal Military Academy