Napoleonic Wargame Club (NWC)

So your point is what? I have read your post fully, still do not get it. I was not referring to myself when discussing work for the club, there are two other cabinet members who carry out large preportions of work within the club
"I was referring to the daily upkeep of Armee websites the tabulation of data for offiers stuff like that. The Cabinet does not maintain that." No the cabinet as a body does not but there are cabinet members who do. What would you like us to do? Scrap the cabinet?
"I do have an idea. I sit on a Board in another club just like this one and we typically discuss one or two issues a month at most so I can't imagine what you guys must be doing here."
Yes thats right you cannot imagine, so your not active in your cabinet so what! But again please explain your point!
"And personally I don't care at this point whether my comments are helpful or not towards the Cabinet."
And guess what its not for the cabinets benefit its for the clubs benefit.
"as we have agreed on an abridged system"
Oh really, we have have we?
And I love this
"Yeah you, but I was not pointing directly at you. The organization as a whole. But that's your choice not your duty."
Thats because its a volunteer club Scott and if nobody did it we would'nt have a club, yes its our choice what are you talking about "Duty"? Its done because we want the thing to work for everybodys enjoyment. So what I suggest you do, instead of half arsed critism of aspects within the club, go ahead and let rip, get it off your chest, if you don't want to do it on the forum we can take this up privately. Please let me know what you can do to help out, improve things anything that promotes the club be my guest, but as I have said we need to know if aspects of the cabinets work or any individual who actually bothers to put extra time in, is in some way causing harm then you have to put your views forward. But If you have not got anything constructive to say then why bother?






General de Division Stuart Wilson
Comte de Montpelier.
I Corps D'Artillerie
Reserve .
3e Régiment Chasseurs à Pied de la Moyenne Garde.

I am sorry but at this point I feel that the discussion needs to be taken to Ken Jones. Ken as CinC needs to discuss with Scott some basic guidelines.

First, it really is not the place of a CoA in this club to make this kind of decision for his fellow officers without consulting them.

What if the Cabinet arbitrarily decided to remove the Talonsoft games from the games inventory? Wouldn't that be a dumb move? Shoot ourselves in the foot.

Scott - that is what you are doing at this point - shooting yourself in the foot. Whatever your motive at this point you are starting to get into the area of insubordination.

We all have roles here. What if we started criticizing your role as Prussian CoA publically? How would that sound?

You were approved at one point to be the CoA of the Prussian army. I started that army off when the club started, Mike Gjerde and others have filled that office since I left command but neither of them have ever acted in this manner. Mike and the others are a first class act to follow.

I ask that this discussion be taken up with Ken Jones. Doesn't Ken have some say in whether your army is automated or not? How about your officers? You speak for the entire Prussian army. What if you proposed a wide sweeping change in the Prussian army but one of your brigade leaders said that absolutely not under any circumstances would he submit to it?

And noone is commanding you to submit on this issue at the moment. You have become your own authority figure at this point.

Here is the agenda guys and I know that Stuart and Jim back me on this as well as the CinCs:

1. John put together an initial message to the Cabinet.
2. He gets with the CinCs who in turn communicate with their armies on the matter. The CinCs and the CoAs solicit their members for comments. This way the rank and file are given a voice too. They go back to John on the matter.
3. John and the CinCs agree on the scope of the system. Will it be for all awards, medals etc., does it include points or will it just be a system that calculates the points from a game?
4. John works out the technical details. He plans out who can maintain the system in his absence (a big problem currently being fixed in the Panzer club). He puts together a working model of the system. He demonstrates it for the Cabinet and the club.
5. The Cabinet votes on the matter - pretty much a rubber stamp by that point.
6. A testbed is developed. The system is tested for at least one month. Once its been thoroughly put throught its paces it is put into operation.

I HIGHLY recommend that John get with Don Adams of the ACWGC instead of Sam. The latter has family health issues (his daughter) and only should be consulted as a last resort. Milan Milicevic is a backup admin officer for the Panzer Campaign system. Rick Amezquita is the main admin guy and if you can get some time with him might be able to help. Don Adams is the man to contact. He is more accesible than Rick or Sam at this point. Milan is a good second choice.

I recommend then that we adjourn this discussion to emails. We need to give John and the CinCs some time to discuss this with the club officers and members.

Please keep this topic on track. Its about automation and not what officers belong in the club or who should be involved in the process.

And CoAs do not determine the future for their entire army. We all need to communicate with our officers. Maybe they want an automated system, eh?

Lets get input from the club members. After all its their club too? Right?

Oberst Wilhelm Peters
2nd Kuirassiers, Reserve Korps, Austrian Army
[url="http://www.acwgc.org/acwgc_members/burr/Austrian%20Army/Bill_Peters.htm"]Officer Battle Dossier[/url]

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Stuart Wilson</i>
<br />So your point is what? I have read your post fully, still do not get it. I was not referring to myself when discussing work for the club, there are two other cabinet members who carry out large preportions of work within the club.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Maybe you care to outline what exactly they do?? They may make longterm goals for the club but daily management is at the local levels in my eyes.

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Stuart Wilson</i>
<br />"I was referring to the daily upkeep of Armee websites the tabulation of data for offiers stuff like that. The Cabinet does not maintain that." No the cabinet as a body does not but there are cabinet members who do. What would you like us to do? Scrap the cabinet?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

But it's not your job as a Cabinet member to do that, it is your job as a Aide in the Armee. No I don't feel we need to scrap the Cabinet, but I do feel some positions may not be needed.

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Stuart Wilson</i>
<br />""I do have an idea. I sit on a Board in another club just like this one and we typically discuss one or two issues a month at most so I can't imagine what you guys must be doing here."
Yes thats right you cannot imagine, so your not active in your cabinet so what! But again please explain your point!<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Excuse me, don't get trite with me. How dare you make judgements about what I do and do not do in other clubs and my preformance there when you are not even a member of that club. I am sure that my men would be glad to line up and give you an ear full on what I do for them in that club. You have just made this personal, and YES I DO have an idea as I DO lead the discussions over there. It is just our club runs quite fine that little interference is neeeded except for monthly topics. You are drawing on a short nerve so watch it!!

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Stuart Wilson</i>
<br />""And personally I don't care at this point whether my comments are helpful or not towards the Cabinet."
And guess what its not for the cabinets benefit its for the clubs benefit.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

You have turned one small statement in one of my first posts totally off topic into a war over the Cabinet. Now you are being childish.

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Stuart Wilson</i>
<br />"as we have agreed on an abridged system"
Oh really, we have have we?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Yes I have discussed it with John Corbin and for now we have a system as described below which I feel will benefit the club.

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Stuart Wilson</i>
<br />"And I love this
"Yeah you, but I was not pointing directly at you. The organization as a whole. But that's your choice not your duty."
Thats because its a volunteer club Scott and if nobody did it we would'nt have a club, yes its our choice what are you talking about "Duty"? Its done because we want the thing to work for everybodys enjoyment. So what I suggest you do, instead of half arsed critism of aspects within the club, go ahead and let rip, get it off your chest, if you don't want to do it on the forum we can take this up privately. Please let me know what you can do to help out, improve things anything that promotes the club be my guest, but as I have said we need to know if aspects of the cabinets work or any individual who actually bothers to put extra time in, is in some way causing harm then you have to put your views forward. But If you have not got anything constructive to say then why bother?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

You turned this into a War against the Cabinet for your own reasons. I am sorry you feel bitter about it, it is a shame. I was saying it is your choice to be a Cabinet member and be an Aide de Camp. Your duties in terms of Aide de Camp have nothing to do with you being a Cabinet member. Those duties are seperate.

I don't know how you turned this into a Cabinet fight. But now you seem hell bent on it. There is no need to speak to me in a belittling way, but as many of us sure would like to know, what exactly you guys do on a daily or weekly basis. I'm not saying anyone is not doing their job. I never had a problem with the Cabinet and still don't.

Again tell me how this all has anything to do with John's suggested auto-system. You found one sentence in all of this discussion that has made headway and made it a personal crusade of yours.

OBTW, your being quite half arsed yourself. Do I got you all fired up now?? [}:)]

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[url="http://www.scott-ludwig.com"]<b>General der Infanterie Scott Ludwig</b>[/url]

Kommandeur
3. Infanterie-Brigade and Aide-du-Camp
I. Armee Korps
Heer am Niederrhein
[url="http://www.prussianarmy.com"]Preußische Armee[/url]

Kommandeur
Garde-Artillerie
[url="http://scott-ludwig.com/NWC/Prussia/Garde.htm"]Preußische Armee Garde-Brigade[/url]



Prinz von Saxe-Weimar
(Prince of Saxe-Weimar)
</center>

This is getting out of hand...

Jim or Pierre... Please delete this thread....

Monsieur le Marechal John Corbin
Chief of Staff
La Grande Armee

So as to not get this topic locked - can we give this topic a few hours rest at this point?

Scott and Stuart - lets keep this on a professional level shall we? The insults are starting to fly.

I ask that if the topic gets any hotter that we get it locked. Its going way off topic at this point.

Whether any officer in the club is neccessary was not the object of this thread. Whether we have a automated system is.

John and Scott - its great that you have taken steps to discuss this. Has Ken Jones and Jeff Bardon been brought into this yet? If not then please do so. No system is going to be implemented at all in the club without them. I appreciate your work in getting the early stages of this started. Lets keep the discussion on a positive note. Please!

Oberst Wilhelm Peters
2nd Kuirassiers, Reserve Korps, Austrian Army
[url="http://www.acwgc.org/acwgc_members/burr/Austrian%20Army/Bill_Peters.htm"]Officer Battle Dossier[/url]

[;)]

General de Division Stuart Wilson
Comte de Montpelier.
I Corps D'Artillerie
Reserve .
3e Régiment Chasseurs à Pied de la Moyenne Garde.

"Its going way off topic at this point."

Speaking of off topic. Has anyone seen <i>The March of the Penguins</i>? I haven't. I must say I think that it must be a MAJOR waste of time and money. Why would anyone want to watch penguins walking around? I made the mistake of seeing <i>Milo and Otis</i>, so I know I won't be watching TMOTP anytime soon.

Bill, NOW we've gone waaaaayyyy off topic. hehehe...[:p]

Colonel Al Amos
1er Dragoons
AdN

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Bill Peters</i>
<br />I am sorry but at this point I feel that the discussion needs to be taken to Ken Jones. Ken as CinC needs to discuss with Scott some basic guidelines.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

First off what guideline am in exactly in violation of?? Also Stefan Reuter is my Commander, Ken Jones is Commander in name.

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Bill Peters</i>
<br />First, it really is not the place of a CoA in this club to make this kind of decision for his fellow officers without consulting them.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

I expect the same from the Cabinet then.

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Bill Peters</i>
<br />Scott - that is what you are doing at this point - shooting yourself in the foot. Whatever your motive at this point you are starting to get into the area of insubordination.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

To whom??

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Bill Peters</i>
<br />We all have roles here. What if we started criticizing your role as Prussian CoA publically? How would that sound?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

I would answer back and as President I hope you would know that I am not the CoA.

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Bill Peters</i>
<br />You were approved at one point to be the CoA of the Prussian army. I started that army off when the club started, Mike Gjerde and others have filled that office since I left command but neither of them have ever acted in this manner. Mike and the others are a first class act to follow.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Again sorry I am not CoA. I am very fired up about this and everything was ok until Stuart said something. Now isn't he getting out of line too??

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Bill Peters</i>
<br />I ask that this discussion be taken up with Ken Jones. Doesn't Ken have some say in whether your army is automated or not? How about your officers? You speak for the entire Prussian army. What if you proposed a wide sweeping change in the Prussian army but one of your brigade leaders said that absolutely not under any circumstances would he submit to it?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Again I am not CoA and therefore I will answer to Stefan. I am not against the system. I don't think we have explored it far enough to ask our men how we feel. When we get there then we should. Basically a few people have pushed my buttons and I am firing back. I am willing to discuss the option but I think we are rushing to far into it. As I said before I agree with what John wants to do, that is a positive step forward.

Basically to discuss it more clear. I had a bad feeling about in the other club. I told John how I had rebuilt OBD's twice from sratch and how they just took numbers out of nowhere, and how we AC's in the CSA can only move our men and look at stuff, we have no control over points awarded etc. I am hostile to the idea now. Also why would I need a system to use that is cumbersome slow and does not load half the time when I can do the work by hand in half the time it takes to get results.

Also I see it hard to design a system that is as well as a hand drawn website. Unless you can add in the flairs that you can with the website it is just plain bad. Half of the fun of my job and others I am sure is being able to design a great looking page and offer the info needed with good looks and taste. If we have an auto-system then we still need to backup the data with another site and it is just pointless in my view then. Why would Aaron Burr and Pavel Stafa et al and myself need to put all the time into our sites like we do, with the nice OBD's and info up there. That is what it is all about for me. I can do the work in half the time and make it look nicer.

If you want your auto-system fine go for it, but as we do in the 1NWCG build it first, present it to the club, and let the club vote on it. We believe in democratic principles there, I hope you do too here. I mean after all you are a product of such principles as President, I would hope you would hold them up. If the final result is people want it then fine, maybe I will continue to do my work. But don't push my buttons and take a small comment I made totally off topic and make it a crusade. I have nothing against you Bill, I hope you do this the right way though.

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Bill Peters</i>
<br />And noone is commanding you to submit on this issue at the moment. You have become your own authority figure at this point.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Again we had reached a good point yesterday with John until Stuart came along with his statements. I do hope no one is forcing this on me but it feel like I am being forced into something.

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Bill Peters</i>
<br />Here is the agenda guys and I know that Stuart and Jim back me on this as well as the CinCs:

1. John put together an initial message to the Cabinet.
2. He gets with the CinCs who in turn communicate with their armies on the matter. The CinCs and the CoAs solicit their members for comments. This way the rank and file are given a voice too. They go back to John on the matter.
3. John and the CinCs agree on the scope of the system. Will it be for all awards, medals etc., does it include points or will it just be a system that calculates the points from a game?
4. John works out the technical details. He plans out who can maintain the system in his absence (a big problem currently being fixed in the Panzer club). He puts together a working model of the system. He demonstrates it for the Cabinet and the club.
5. The Cabinet votes on the matter - pretty much a rubber stamp by that point.
6. A testbed is developed. The system is tested for at least one month. Once its been thoroughly put throught its paces it is put into operation.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Fine two gripes. Let the masses vote on it after they can see the system.

I feel that there will be numerous people needed to have access such as the Aide de Camps who do the work for their armies if you go full blow on this not one person.

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Bill Peters</i>
<br />Please keep this topic on track. Its about automation and not what officers belong in the club or who should be involved in the process.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Hey I did not turn it into this and I never mentioned anything about anyone not being allowed in the club, that would be rather tyrannical. It was on track by the way too.

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Bill Peters</i>
<br />And CoAs do not determine the future for their entire army. We all need to communicate with our officers. Maybe they want an automated system, eh?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Again I hope you get to know who is in command. I was not determining the future for my men I was raising a concerned voice from someone who does the work for their men, until someone decided to take a personal war on a small comment.

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Bill Peters</i>
<br />Lets get input from the club members. After all its their club too? Right?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Right Bill then let them see the system and vote on it as a club, not just the Cabinet.

[:D][:D][:D]

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[url="http://www.scott-ludwig.com"]<b>General der Infanterie Scott Ludwig</b>[/url]

Kommandeur
3. Infanterie-Brigade and Aide-du-Camp
I. Armee Korps
Heer am Niederrhein
[url="http://www.prussianarmy.com"]Preußische Armee[/url]

Kommandeur
Garde-Artillerie
[url="http://scott-ludwig.com/NWC/Prussia/Garde.htm"]Preußische Armee Garde-Brigade[/url]



Prinz von Saxe-Weimar
(Prince of Saxe-Weimar)
</center>

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Bill Peters</i>
<br />So as to not get this topic locked - can we give this topic a few hours rest at this point?

Scott and Stuart - lets keep this on a professional level shall we? The insults are starting to fly.

I ask that if the topic gets any hotter that we get it locked. Its going way off topic at this point.

Whether any officer in the club is neccessary was not the object of this thread. Whether we have a automated system is.

John and Scott - its great that you have taken steps to discuss this. Has Ken Jones and Jeff Bardon been brought into this yet? If not then please do so. No system is going to be implemented at all in the club without them. I appreciate your work in getting the early stages of this started. Lets keep the discussion on a positive note. Please!

Oberst Wilhelm Peters
2nd Kuirassiers, Reserve Korps, Austrian Army
[url="http://www.acwgc.org/acwgc_members/burr/Austrian%20Army/Bill_Peters.htm"]Officer Battle Dossier[/url]<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Oh trust me I'm done. Like I said before. Let the masses vote on it.

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[url="http://www.scott-ludwig.com"]<b>General der Infanterie Scott Ludwig</b>[/url]

Kommandeur
3. Infanterie-Brigade and Aide-du-Camp
I. Armee Korps
Heer am Niederrhein
[url="http://www.prussianarmy.com"]Preußische Armee[/url]

Kommandeur
Garde-Artillerie
[url="http://scott-ludwig.com/NWC/Prussia/Garde.htm"]Preußische Armee Garde-Brigade[/url]



Prinz von Saxe-Weimar
(Prince of Saxe-Weimar)
</center>

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Al Amos</i>
<br />I made the mistake of seeing <i>Milo and Otis</i>, so I know I won't be watching TMOTP anytime soon.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Lol...to lighten it up a bit...don't knock Milo and Otis...it's a classic. [:D] Better watch out or I will bust you down to Sous-Cadet after you just made Caporal at the other place...[:D][:D]

<center>
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[url="http://www.scott-ludwig.com"]<b>General der Infanterie Scott Ludwig</b>[/url]

Kommandeur
3. Infanterie-Brigade and Aide-du-Camp
I. Armee Korps
Heer am Niederrhein
[url="http://www.prussianarmy.com"]Preußische Armee[/url]

Kommandeur
Garde-Artillerie
[url="http://scott-ludwig.com/NWC/Prussia/Garde.htm"]Preußische Armee Garde-Brigade[/url]



Prinz von Saxe-Weimar
(Prince of Saxe-Weimar)
</center>