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 Post subject: Rout Limiting?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 12, 2006 10:52 pm 
I was rather baffled by a couple of recent remarks by Bill Peters on "discouraging the use of Rout Limiting" (or words to that effect) which to me sounded like Bill thought it were the rule that the rule is ON, and suggesting that it be checked OFF were a novelty. Personally I have never yet met someone in this club (unlike the ACW club to be sure) who would play with Rout Limiting ON. And afterall, playing with it OFF is the default selection recommended by the User Manual*. Of course Bill's guess is as good as mine with respect to what the majority of the club members uses. But I am just curious--anybody play with Rout Limiting ON?

(*As an aside, has anybody else slight problems calling a file a "manual"?)

<center>
D.S. "Green Horse" Walter, Maréchal d'Empire
Duc des Pyramides, Comte de Normandie
Commandant la [url="http://home.arcor.de/dierk_Walter/NWC/3_VI_AdR_Home.htm"]3e Division Bavaroise[/url], L'Armée du Rhin
Commandant [url="http://home.arcor.de/dierk_Walter/NWC/EdM_start.htm"]L'Ecole de Mars[/url], L'Armée du Rhin
Commandant la Brigade de Grenadiers de la Moyenne Garde
Image</center>


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 12, 2006 11:46 pm 
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Rout Limiting ON certainly shouldn't be the default setting. Also I feel that many units tend to be given an inflated morale level. Why should <i>any</i> unit be A+ let alone A++ instead of just plain A? That's surely quite high enough for elite status.

I'd recommend the following straightforward system:

A - reserved for elite troops
B - veterans
C - regulars
D - green troops and militia
E & F - reluctant militia or untrained civilians

Thus most units currently over-graded at A or A+, etc would be better off downgraded to B or possibly even C. I probably wouldn't even grade the Old Guard any higher than A.

In fact, the only troops I feel that would really deserve an A+ ranking would be Renaissance Swiss, the sort of troops who'd fight for two days against 2:1 odds and then, when the enemy received fresh reinforcements, would still retire in good order after suffering massive losses. Compared to such fine troops, the French Old Guard are little better than raw militia.

Capt Rich White
4th Cavalry Brigade
Cavalry Corps
Anglo-Allied Army


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 13, 2006 5:46 am 
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Richard, I agree entirely (see Eckmuhl Patch post by Bill Peters). I guess a lot has to do with game balance rather than realism as such.

I like rout limiting ON simply because the Allies are far more prone to running than the French.

Generalissimo
Opolchenie Korpus
Russian Army


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 13, 2006 9:41 am 
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It's one of the features I always leave "as you like". So I play with it both on and off. If I'm to choose I usually turn it off. Most of the units, except cossacks and some "smaller countries" units, are overvalued.

<center>Image</center>
<center><b>Eyo Imperatorskogo Velichestva Leib-Kirassirskogo polku
General-Mayor Anton Valeryevich Kosyanenko
commander of Little Russian grenadiers regiment</b></center>


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 13, 2006 11:03 am 
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Richard</i>
<br />Rout Limiting ON certainly shouldn't be the default setting. Also I feel that many units tend to be given an inflated morale level. Why should <i>any</i> unit be A+ let alone A++ instead of just plain A? That's surely quite high enough for elite status.

I'd recommend the following straightforward system:

A - reserved for elite troops
B - veterans
C - regulars
D - green troops and militia
E & F - reluctant militia or untrained civilians

Thus most units currently over-graded at A or A+, etc would be better off downgraded to B or possibly even C. I probably wouldn't even grade the Old Guard any higher than A.

In fact, the only troops I feel that would really deserve an A+ ranking would be Renaissance Swiss, the sort of troops who'd fight for two days against 2:1 odds and then, when the enemy received fresh reinforcements, would still retire in good order after suffering massive losses. Compared to such fine troops, the French Old Guard are little better than raw militia.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

I think the A-E system that you recommend is actually used in the games for the most part. The A+(++) units are really more Nappy mythology than any actual recognition of historical fighting prowess. Afterall, how often has one seen the Vieille Garde fight?

However, I am not sure about your renaissance Swiss being the only troops who were capable of such feats as you describe. Surely there are other examples of troops holding steadfastly against impossible odds. What about the defenders of Rourke's Drift? And they were regular line.

<center>
D.S. "Green Horse" Walter, Maréchal d'Empire
Duc des Pyramides, Comte de Normandie
Commandant la [url="http://home.arcor.de/dierk_Walter/NWC/3_VI_AdR_Home.htm"]3e Division Bavaroise[/url], L'Armée du Rhin
Commandant [url="http://home.arcor.de/dierk_Walter/NWC/EdM_start.htm"]L'Ecole de Mars[/url], L'Armée du Rhin
Commandant la Brigade de Grenadiers de la Moyenne Garde
Image</center>


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 13, 2006 12:23 pm 
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The point about the Renaissance Swiss is that they could be relied upon to consistently <b>attack</b> ferociously and fanatically against overwhelming odds, massed artillery, almost impregnable defensive positions, etc. Marignano (1515) might be the most well-known instance, but also at Novara (1513), Bicocca (1522) and on other battlefields. Of course if the odds were stacked heavily against them they'd usually fail and, after a series of defeats even they lost their taste for impulsive headlong assaults.

Rourke's Drift was certainly a heroic defence, but it's probably quite easy to find many similar instances of defenders holding out stubbornly against impossible odds - especially when they believed they'd be massacred if they attempting to flee or surrender and the "safest" place to be was probably their defensive position.

So, I reckon it's much braver to attack a strong defensive position than defend one.

Capt Rich White
4th Cavalry Brigade
Cavalry Corps
Anglo-Allied Army


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 13, 2006 12:46 pm 
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I think the only battle from Napoleonic wars where an army suffered casualties close to 50% and continued to stand their ground is Borodino. In most of other battles one side was on run after 20-30% combat losses. Unfortunately, it is not the case in BG/HPS because most of the units are given too high morale.



The following scale from New-Settings for NIR sounds very logical to me and I would love to see some patches on this matter.

“The original quality values for the troops in the NIR OOB gives too much morale to them. Together with the use of the “morale boostingâ€


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 13, 2006 5:09 pm 
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I say but this is one of my favorite all time discussion topics.

First, I must say that the reason why the Eckmuhl and Wagram morales are so high is that during testing the Austrians, even with similar morale as the French, were running willy-nilly for the border after about 4 turns of fire. And sometimes only after 2 turns.

This with Rout Limiting ON.

Knowing that folks would turn RL OFF I had John add in the Flank Morale modifier. Its not only historical but it makes common sense. When the dudes on the flanks bugged out you were less likely to want to let your fanny hang in the wind. Thus more folks bugged out when units on their flanks were gone. Thus with RL OFF and FMM OFF too many unhistorical routs were occuring in our playtest games. I only need ask Ken Jones to report on this as my witness.

Some folks would see this as Rout Limiting OFF and Flank Morale Mod ON and I wont disagree with that. But you wont have BOTH of them OFF and sell me a Napoleonic battle.

Herein lies the great problem: sure, Napoleon's troops bolted for the rear at Wagram when they saw a body of troops moving on the right flank - but this was a RARE case and we cant model it.

So we have to go with history.

In history you dont see folks moving into close fire range as quick as their units would move. Someone once said that only about a 1/4 of the troops were ever used in a battle. I have heard folks vehemently defend this claim YET at every big battle I can think of just about ALL of the troops were committed.

Waterloo - Wellington was down to his last ace. Napoleon tossed in the Guard. Would he have done this if I, II, or VI Corps was still fresh? Neither of these corps had a fresh or even semi-fresh division available when the battle came down to the end.

Borodino - Napoleon was down to the Guard - this time he didnt commit them. Kutusov, Barclay, Bagration were all down to their last reserves.

Austerlitz - there were formations that were not used much such as Bernadotte who was the only hesitant commander on the French side to get in on the attack. Lannes, Soult, Davout, Murat all had committed their troops at various times.

So I never can figure out where this 25 percent figure comes into play. And we all know that folks get the entire army moving off on turn 1 in most games. I call it the "Herd of wild Elephants syndrom" - sure some of you play historically and dont move all of your forces into contact right away but from the games I have played in the past 3 years I can vouch that this RARELY happens. Most of the time I have an entire French army marching down my throat.

How does this affect my point? Simply this: folks have the entire French army on the move in Waterloo on turn 1. If its fixed we get negative email. So I tried to accomodate you guys - then we hear of blitzkrieg. So this stuff gets really tiring. We cant use the Fix modelling and we cant have high morales. So the French win a ton of battles. And a few, I say few, Allies happen to win as well. But its harder to win as the Allies in these games than the French.

What to do? Now folks are saying here that RL needs to STAY OFF. Ok, so how do you as the French in Aspern-Essling hold the Granary and Church if your morale is 4, you get hit on the flank and you have RL OFF?

Try it out sometime. I have - over 30 times in playtest. The guys BOLT for the river. Is that historical? Massena would pistol whip me for such poor morale treatment.

Yes, the French were known to bolt for the rear but it wasnt because they ROUTED that they lost the church over and over again. The weight in numbers would result in them getting tossed out. Not routed out.

If its a rout then you have a unit that is hors de combat for about 4 turns. For 1 turn it runs. Then in the next turn you stack Massena, Lannes or someone with great morale with him. If you get lucky he is now disordered. If not you wait another turn. And if the enemy fire on him and get near him they run again. So you rally him on the third turn.

Meanwhile, the Austrians are storming in. And some of their guys rout too but if you keep your spacing then the RL rule OFF doesnt even affect their partners. And spacing is something that doesnt go with history. For maneuver yes but keeping 100 meters between battalians in a close in fight like Aspern doesnt jibe with what I have read. And entire Austrian brigades didnt rout away alot.

Thus in the testing we did for Eckmuhl the morale ratings worked out very well for the Austrians. For the French we found that they just didnt want to rout much but after some fatigue they would.

And then the time factor weighs in. In Wagram we had scenarios of only 12 turns. If you rout out on turn 4 you will not recapture a place with that same battalian - which happened over and over again at Aspern.

However, I am not one to just leave it as is. I would like to see if the game, with Flank Morale Mod ON, can model history with lower morales. So I have enlisted the help of two of my playtesters to test it out. I have taken the main OB for my new title, copied it, reduced the French morales and set up a copy of one of the main battles for them to test it out with.

One tester will test it with RL ON and the other with RL OFF.

Both will have the Flank Morale Mod ON.

The Allies will not be changed unless we find that they just wont rout.

After we test it out if the French rout a tad more I will go with the new OB. We will then try it with reduced Allied morales.

If I find that they are running like wild geese all over the place I will go back to the current morales. If it works to where they can put up a decent defense are not running like dogs each turn then we will go with that morale.

Basic ratings:

French Ligne: 4
French Legere: 5
French elite inf: 5
French Guard: 7
French Hussars/Chasseurs/Dragoons: 4
French Cuirassiers: 5
All ligne artillery: 4
Guard Artillery: 5

These numbers are just ballpark figures. They jibe with NIR in part. I dont like having the French Imperial Guard as 8 or 9 for the most part. I will use the Fanatical rating for a unit if its a unique situation or the unit just died to the last man by historical record.

I will try and remember to keep you updated on the results of the tests.

One thing that you will note: we dont lock the OB files like we did the maps. That is because I am a fond believer in user-tweaking.

Thus if you dont like the Wagram and Eckmuhl morales you can always adjust them on your own. Create a copy of the OB and tweak to your heart's content.

Dont like the morale for the Bavarians? Lower it! Think that the French line should be worth less? Reduce it down more.

Just remember that the scenarios were more or less tested with less routing involved. You are going to run out of time more often as the attacker.

That in itself is not a bad thing as long as the defender is not running away wholesale at the end of a game and the attacker just walks in and takes the objectives.

On the other hand if you have an OB for Eckmuhl that you think will work send it my way. If the Morale Project works out ok I may be changing Eckmuhl and Wagram anyway.

Bill Peters
HPS Napoleonic Scenario Designer (Eckmuhl, Wagram)

[url="http://www.fireandmelee.net"]Fire and Melee Wargame site[/url]


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 13, 2006 11:04 pm 
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Interesting discussion

I have usually played with both Rout Limiting and Flank Morale off (New Settings conditions), my objective being to reduce casualties in games by preventing units fighting to the last man.

Regarding these options, the Flank Morale modifier is, for me, an unneccesary bonus. In the BG series there is a morale check penalty to taking casualties from having an exposed flank attacked by enfilade fire or melee - I assume this carried over to the HPS games. This is the incentive to protect your flank. I see no reason to give an additional bonus for doing so, the negation of the penalty by sensible deployment is reward enough. Finally, on this point, why should a unit with a unit in adjacent hexes be rewarded with a morale bonus, when one (the central) of 3 units, in the same hex, (with even closer flank support), does not?

On Rout Limiting, I leave this off to discourage deployment in adjacent hexes. This has two purposes; first, it encourages players to not attack in one wave, but in multiple lines of battle; second, it generates a more realitic frontage for the battalions in line formation, [I tend to think of the two hex ZOC in front of the unit on the map as representing the extent of the battalion, rather than the single hex it occupies - it also allows cavalry and artillery, or battalions from the second line to move forward through the first line, without the unrealistic need for shuffling units to right and left to create the gaps].

Bill's point about armies in the games all moving to contact from Turn 1 is well made. I think this happens because, if the attacking player sends a small force forward, the defending player has the opportunity to overwhelm it locally with a greater number of units. With the (above) optional rules off, the armies maintain their structure much better in order to keep command and control and smaller numbers of units are engaged at any time, to reduce (not eliminate) the risk of massive routing. The massive routs will occur later in the game when units are fatigued from multiple melees - ask messrs. Barrett and Corbin how the full Barrett was defeated at Waterloo before a single Prussian arrived on the map!

I would happily play with rout limiting on, as long as flank morale was off. This would allow deployment in adjacent hexes without risk of a monstrous rout, but that would enable units to fight longer than they should.

If we want units to stay and fight longer, go for higher morale, they will rout less readily. However, the check and balance to this is that it should be more difficult to rally/re-order a routed/disordered unit. Perhaps half the current rate for both. Make the rout a much more significant event, especially for armies advancing en masse, which faile dto break the enemy with their first assault - it'll certainly make players re-evaluate their tactics for breaking the enemy position.

Finally a note on flank attacks, whether by ranged fire or melee. Bill mentioned the case of the French holding the granary / church in Aspern-Essling. It's absolutely right that they would likely go in the circumstances described. In the BG series, the ability to change formation in the defensive phase was very useful; threatened by enfilade fire - change to column, threatened by flank melee attack - change to square (or better still have a skirmish company with the appropriate facing, already deployed with the battalion). Probably as a minority view, I find the loss of this capability to respond to a threat a big sacrifice in the HPS series. However, the best way to deal with this threat is to defend these locations as the commanders would have done so, ie, not a battalion in line or column or square, but companies (skirmishers as the game equivalent) with multiple facings, thereby negating both enfilade fire or flank melee attack, and leaving the parent battalion(s) in an adjcent hex, (they can not be disordered by routing skirmishers - BG not sure about HPS) ready to counter attack.

I recently fought a 12 turn game in which most units were A quality or higher. A few units were routed during the game, all of which rallied on the next turn, even though the highest order commander (used for rallying) was division level. Re-ordering was, of course, more difficult, but since routing was improbable, they could spend several turns in my second line waiting to re-order. By the final Turn of the game the only routed unit was a French skirmisher which routed behind enemy lines so could not be rallied with the aid of a leader. The Austrians even had a quality A battalion of 450 men reduced to 46 men, routed, rallied, re-ordered and back on the front line within the hour!

Not sure if this helps with anything, but I would go for reduced re-order / rally and reduced fatigue recovery rates before considering changes to unit quality. Increasing unit quality starts to affect factors such as formation change probability in threat zone, melee attack bonus, fire attack bonus, which probably kick in at quality A and no difference in bonus between A, A+, A++ etc. By pushing all unit quality higher, the differential in these parameters is lost, making the only difference between units the probability of morale failure/and rallying.

Regards

Mark


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 14, 2006 2:32 am 
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I find myself wondering what the effect is on how things play out that it is only the defender who can rout (the phasing player can only disorder)? The great fear that I have is that more routs will simply mean the attacker will be able to keep moving forward more easily, leading to an even greater tilitng of the system towards the attack as they rush forward and surround those routed units. I know, it's a worst case scenario, but... It's probably too much to ask within the engine to allow attackers to rout, but I wonder if it is possible to make good order units go to disorder, and disordered units rout (meaning good order units won't go straight to rout). I know it's simplisitic and feel good order units should be able to rout in the face of artillery fire or cavalry charges, but the eternal problem of starting to make special cases is there's always one more case to be made.

I usually play with rout limiting ON because that seems to be the default option for many players (admittedly most of my experience thus far is in the ACW club...your mileage may vary). I would prefer to play with it off since it reduces the "superhuman" aspect of some units, and makes militia act like, well, militia. And I always considered the flank morale bonus of having protected flanks to be that you won't be...flanked. No flanking fire, no negative DRM, and that seemed enough of a bonus to me.

I did note on one of the club sites that there was a statement (lament?) that in its inception "no one" played with limiting on, and now almost everyone does. I wonder why the change, unless it was people not liking the fact that their units routed too much?! [B)]


Lt Sean Turner
1er Dragons
2ème Division de Dragons
Ier Corps de Réserve de Cavalerie
l'Armee du Nord


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 14, 2006 6:36 am 
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Sean

I think that the problem with having units rout for the attacking player is that it leaves a hole for your opponent to exploit duirng his movement phase and there is nothing that you can do about it.

This would probably result in players being much more reluctant to launch an offensive move.

I would certainly favour a system, as has been discussed previously, whereby units are possibly disordered, or prematurely end their movement, because they fail a morale check for advancing into an enemy threat zone. This would certainly disrupt an advance, especially by lower quality units, without blowing a hole in the offensive side line.

Regards

Mark


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 14, 2006 11:57 am 
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Mark

Ah, yes. My brain was in "single phase" mode where you could move in other units when one routed. (As in, you'd have to maintain a reserve!) In phased play, different ball game...

Lt Sean Turner
1er Dragons
2ème Division de Dragons
Ier Corps de Réserve de Cavalerie
l'Armee du Nord


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 15, 2006 2:55 am 
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<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Sean Turner</i>
<br />Mark

Ah, yes. My brain was in "single phase" mode where you could move in other units when one routed. (As in, you'd have to maintain a reserve!) In phased play, different ball game...
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

I understand, it is my fault because I never think in single phase mode.

I am trying to play a scenario at the moment in both modes. I am Austrian and have very limited ammunition and supply.

In the single phase game, one of my battalions goes low ammunition first move by the enemy, firing at target that I would never have considered worthy if I had all the ammunition in Europe. It takes a couple of hits and routs. Now that it has rallied, I have to decide whether it is worth re-supplying or whether I should save that for a better unit!

My batteries have had to turn to point at my own units to try to stop them wasting ammunition at long range against daft targets.

I definitely think this one is a scenario for multi-phase [B)]

Mark


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