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 Post subject: Those Stalwart Russians
PostPosted: Mon Jan 16, 2006 5:48 am 
I find it remarkably hard to win against the Russians. Don't laugh! Remember, I know both sides of most HPS games. I think I have a reasonable chance to win as the French *or* the Austrians at Eckmuhl or Wagram, as the French *or* the Coalition at Waterloo. But NRC I never found very difficult playing Russian. Now I am finding it nearly impossible as the French. The Russians, especially their infantry, are always there in huge numbers, they stand their ground, they never seem to rout, they even attack and carry everything before them.

I do not pretend to an expert on the 1812 campaign and will yield to everyone who is. But I find this remarkable performance hard to reconcile with what I've read on the war. Sure, we've all heard of how the Russian peasant, embued with quasi-religious patriotism and helped by the black virgin of Smolensk (or so), let himself be killed in his masses rather than give ground. But the actual performance in battle--the few battles that were--does not really sound like there were any remarkable soldierly qualities in the Russian army of 1812. At Borodino they barely managed to hold their own against an enemy who was about their own number, badly fed and badly horsed, and employed no more cunning stratagems than a series of frontal assaults. If Nappy would have had superior numbers, a good mounted arm and operated against their flank and rea I would be impressed by the Russian performance, but so? A defender in improved positions should be quite able to hold himself against an attacker not markedly superior in numbers.

At Maloyaroslavets, the whole Russian army barely managed to contain a single Italian corps that was attacking uphill over a bridge through a burning village. Odds: ca. 4 to 1, yet they very nearly lost. At Krasnoe, half a Russian army ran before the Young Guard. At the Berezina, a charge by 2000 cuirassiers very nearly routed a Russian army which hadn't particularly distinguished itself by being held in check for a day by what figured as two corps d'armée but was closer to being two undersized brigades. And so on during the retreat ... whenever Ney (usually) lashed back with a couple of hundred starved and half-frozen scarecrows, vastly superior Russian numbers just dispersed. In fact, looking at the map and the numbers disparity, is it even believable that a single man of the Grande Armée made it out of Russia?

So, no slight intended to the Russian officers in this club, let alone the real Russians. But it appears to me that the sort of resistance offered by the Russian soldiers in practically every battle of NRC I have fought is hardly likely to produce anywhere near the historical outcome of any of the battles of the historical 1812 campaign, against a reasonable competent opponent. Are they overrated?

<center>
D.S. "Green Horse" Walter, Maréchal d'Empire
Duc des Pyramides, Comte de Normandie
Commandant la [url="http://home.arcor.de/dierk_Walter/NWC/3_VI_AdR_Home.htm"]3e Division Bavaroise[/url], L'Armée du Rhin
Commandant [url="http://home.arcor.de/dierk_Walter/NWC/EdM_start.htm"]L'Ecole de Mars[/url], L'Armée du Rhin
Commandant la Brigade de Grenadiers de la Moyenne Garde
Image</center>


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 16, 2006 5:52 am 
Or maybe it's just Andy and his MP team ... [:D]

<center>
D.S. "Green Horse" Walter, Maréchal d'Empire
Duc des Pyramides, Comte de Normandie
Commandant la [url="http://home.arcor.de/dierk_Walter/NWC/3_VI_AdR_Home.htm"]3e Division Bavaroise[/url], L'Armée du Rhin
Commandant [url="http://home.arcor.de/dierk_Walter/NWC/EdM_start.htm"]L'Ecole de Mars[/url], L'Armée du Rhin
Commandant la Brigade de Grenadiers de la Moyenne Garde
Image</center>


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 16, 2006 6:37 am 
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Joined: Sat Jul 14, 2001 12:13 am
Posts: 590
Location: USA
Perhaps when we finish our Belgian business, you should test your theorem against me. If you can't beat me, then you know the balance is totally skewed [8D]

FZM Freiherr Gary McClellan
Generalissimus Imperial Austrian Army
Portner Grenadier Battallion
Allied Coalition C-in-C


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jan 16, 2006 6:49 am 
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Joined: Tue Oct 09, 2001 10:57 am
Posts: 2197
Location: Canada
Could this be a similar situation that existed in NIR ?

Recall that the morale setting for NIR Russian troops was set to
high level ? I watched whole units march right up to my arty and not rout reagrdless of how many casualties were taken.

the New Settings Project made a correction to this by downgrading the moral number

Monsieur le Marechal Baron John Corbin
Duc de Paive
Commanding the Division de Cavalerie de la Jeune Garde
NWC President


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 16, 2006 6:52 am 
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Posts: 590
Location: USA
John, it's a similar situation, but there are some differences. Like NIR, the Russians do get a fanatic bonus, but the exact extent of that bonus is determined by the campaign choices. For instance, a decision to "run" from the French at one point (I forget where), causes the fanatic bonus to drop a point.

When you combine the fanatic bonus with most of the line troops being C or better, that leads to a very, very tough army. C troops fight like A troops most of the time for instance.

FZM Freiherr Gary McClellan
Generalissimus Imperial Austrian Army
Portner Grenadier Battallion
Allied Coalition C-in-C


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jan 16, 2006 6:57 am 
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Posts: 846
Location: USA
What's this? A Frenchman whining about his army being inferior? Well, I never thought I would hear that. Drinks all around.

The Russian army was not a strategic fighting force, but what they lacked in imagination they more than made up for it with their fanatical willingness to die for the Motherland and the Tzar. Prime examples of this would be Elyau and Borodino -- two of the bloodiest battles of the Napoleonic Wars. No grand strategies here, just plain slugfests. That's what the Russians were good at -- killing and dying in large numbers. Napoleon's invasion was doomed to fail (just like Hitler's) because the Russian soldier was not afraid to die. Was it a numbers game? Probably. But the Russian Generals knew that numbers, supply, the vast distances, and the weather would defeat Napoleon -- and anyone else that would be so foolish to invade Russia.

Is the NRC fair? I think it is. The French should be fighting an uphill series of battles where only a series of spectacular victories could bring a victory in the campaign. Since you say it is difficult to win as the French, then the game must have it right.

FM Sir 'Muddy' Jones, KG
2nd Life Guards, Household Cavalry


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jan 16, 2006 7:07 am 
Well, what I read seemed to indicate that the French lost the <u>campaign</u> for strategic reasons (the unwillingness of the Russian government to surrender & strategic consumption of their force, mainly). But--as I outlined in the original post--the Russians lost or just about survived every single <u>battle</u>. That's a huge difference. Yet in NRC I find it nearly impossible to win the <u>battles</u>. I don't think your reply addressed that point.

<center>
D.S. "Green Horse" Walter, Maréchal d'Empire
Duc des Pyramides, Comte de Normandie
Commandant la [url="http://home.arcor.de/dierk_Walter/NWC/3_VI_AdR_Home.htm"]3e Division Bavaroise[/url], L'Armée du Rhin
Commandant [url="http://home.arcor.de/dierk_Walter/NWC/EdM_start.htm"]L'Ecole de Mars[/url], L'Armée du Rhin
Commandant la Brigade de Grenadiers de la Moyenne Garde
Image</center>


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jan 16, 2006 7:08 am 
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Joined: Wed May 23, 2001 10:18 am
Posts: 6115
NIR had +4 fanaticism. NRC has +2 for the most part. It makes a difference when you start adding on the fatigue and flank bonuses.

The best way to get the Russians to rout is hit them on the flank with fire and with no leader in their stack.

As I remember this only applied to the infantry. One tactic is to get the cavalry to run away (Cossacks and Hussars and Dragoons) and then you can wipe out the infantry.

Bill Peters
HPS Napoleonic Scenario Designer (Eckmuhl, Wagram)

[url="http://www.fireandmelee.net"]Fire and Melee Wargame site[/url]


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jan 16, 2006 8:55 am 
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Joined: Mon Mar 29, 2004 12:32 am
Posts: 908
Location: Moscow, Russia
Dierk,

Why only frosts and peace not signed are stated as the reasons to the campaign being lost? And what about supplies, intelligence, economics, religion etc, etc? Napoleon didn't manage to provide his army with supplies - starvation started much earlier then in Moscow. It has started just after the crossing of Nieman if not before. Anyway there was no means to feed such a huge army with technology of XIX century in such a country as Russia. And actually for half a year! (that's how long campaign lasted!!!)He didn't manage to organise appropriate intelligence service that's why his "firsts" were busy striking the empty space while Russians could always disappear. The list can be extended and continued.

Second. Why russian army is not considered at least as experiened as the french one? And much more experienced than any other european army? In most of campaigns russian forces took active role. And our army had the experience no one else (except foes) had: winter fights in Finland and maneuvering war with Turkey.

And what is that strange list of accounts? I do say nothing about the interpretation - it's clearly one sided. Beign brought up on very one sided (but contrary ;-) ) accounts I believe the trooth is somewhere in between. And in between means russian forces were at least as stable, willing and able to fight as any other.

And the last. I do not like these fanaticism bonuses myself. But if you cancel them you will have to make two important changes. First the average quality of all the russian troops should be increased by one. Due to the wast experience of the men in lines. Secon all of the french troops should start any battle since Smolensk to Maloyaroslavets with medium fatigue and after Maloyaroslavets with High fatigues. With Russians starting with medium fatigue after Maloyaroslavets. BTW it will also address the issue with units fighting to the last man.

To repeat if needed I will provide accounts and my own thoughts and estimations of the quality, etc.

<center>Image</center>
<center><b>Eyo Imperatorskogo Velichestva Leib-Kirassirskogo polku
General-Mayor Anton Valeryevich Kosyanenko
commander of Little Russian grenadiers regiment</b></center>


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jan 16, 2006 8:57 am 
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Posts: 908
Location: Moscow, Russia
And what you expected starting a game with three allied top 30 officers[;)][:p][^]

<center>Image</center>
<center><b>Eyo Imperatorskogo Velichestva Leib-Kirassirskogo polku
General-Mayor Anton Valeryevich Kosyanenko
commander of Little Russian grenadiers regiment</b></center>


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jan 16, 2006 7:41 pm 
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Joined: Tue May 22, 2001 10:30 pm
Posts: 454
Location: USA
Dierk,

I have played NRC only a handful of times, but I have come to the same conclusion, to wit, that the game overrates the Russian forces in a number of key respects. Aside from the "fanatic" rating for the infantry, I take issue with the following:

1) Artillery is rated purely by the caliber (poundage) of the guns, without taking into consideration the inferior Russian powder, guns and technical skills of their crews. The Russian licornes were an unhappy cross between a gun and a howitzer and lacked the range and accuracy of a true gun. Hence, for instance, a Russian 12lbr licorne battery did NOT perform as well as the French 12lbr guns.

2) Although invaluable as a reconnoissance and/or guerilla force, the Cossacks rgts were TRIBAL units (Essentially a throwback to feudal levies) which lacked the discipline and/or will to mix it up with a cohesive, disciplined opponent. When faced with anything of remotely equal size, they would simply fall back. Their inclusion in NRC's oob as "lancers", however, makes them ideal cavalry killers for attritioning high value French cav. [B)] Yes, cossacks were highly skilled in the use of the lance, but they were in it strictly for the loot and would simply refuse to engage anything but a disorganized force that they could overwhelm at minimal cost to themselves.

3) Unlike other European armies, in the Russian army dragoons were NOT an elite, cavalry force. On the contrary, they took the place of other armies' "chasseurs a cheval", receiving what was left over, in both troopers and horseflesh, after the more prestigious cuirassier and hussar rgts had filled out their rosters. In NRC, however, Russian dragoons magically become "heavy", "A" morale cavalry[:(!].

Regards,

Paco

<i>Maréchal</i> M. Francisco Palomo
<i>Prince d'Essling, Grande Duc d'Abrantes et
Comte de Marseille
Commandant - Division de Cavalerie de la Vieille Garde </i>
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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jan 17, 2006 3:04 am 
Thinking more about it, I am beginning to doubt that the Russian campaign can be reasonably portrayed within the HPS system at all. In this system, the tactical outcome of battles decides the course of the campaign. But historically, winning or losing battles was nearly irrelevant for the outcome of the 1812 campaign, which was instead decided by strategic factors. The Grande Armée may have lost 30,000 men at Borodino, but it lost 200,000 (and most of its horses) getting there.

To some degree, given new features such as straggling, marching fatigue, weather effects and supply, a Russian campaign on a single huge map might be worthwhile. But that map would probably be beyond the limits of computer and design capabilities.

<center>
D.S. "Green Horse" Walter, Maréchal d'Empire
Duc des Pyramides, Comte de Normandie
Commandant la [url="http://home.arcor.de/dierk_Walter/NWC/3_VI_AdR_Home.htm"]3e Division Bavaroise[/url], L'Armée du Rhin
Commandant [url="http://home.arcor.de/dierk_Walter/NWC/EdM_start.htm"]L'Ecole de Mars[/url], L'Armée du Rhin
Commandant la Brigade de Grenadiers de la Moyenne Garde
Image</center>


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jan 17, 2006 11:03 am 
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Joined: Tue Feb 03, 2004 7:32 am
Posts: 60
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">To some degree, given new features such as straggling, marching fatigue, weather effects and supply, a Russian campaign on a single huge map might be worthwhile. But that map would probably be beyond the limits of computer and design capabilities.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

<Thinks of a single-map scenario for NRC>

<Feels a bit light-headed>

<Thinks of 20 minute turns covering 8 months (or more?)>

<Heads out to buy wrist brace. No...voice command software. Now goes to buy throat lozenges. Stopped for driving erratically. Arrested for speaking gibberish.>

<Thinks of moving 600,000 troops at the beginning, a few hundred men at a time>

<Wakes up in Emergency Room. We hope!>

<Decides, "Why not?!" Plans retirement party in 25 years to mark the halfway point of the campaign.>

<Finishes 15,000-turn campaign on 100th birthday. Campaign is a DRAW, but earns 2 VP's and a campaign ribbon. Dies happy, though with no voice and both hands having been amputated above the wrist. St Peter is not impressed; says I should've wintered in Smolensk...>

[8]









Lt Sean Turner
1er Dragons
2ème Division de Dragons
Ier Corps de Réserve de Cavalerie
l'Armee du Nord


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 17, 2006 11:12 am 
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Posts: 6115
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by D.S. Walter</i>
<br />Thinking more about it, I am beginning to doubt that the Russian campaign can be reasonably portrayed within the HPS system at all. In this system, the tactical outcome of battles decides the course of the campaign. But historically, winning or losing battles was nearly irrelevant for the outcome of the 1812 campaign, which was instead decided by strategic factors. The Grande Armée may have lost 30,000 men at Borodino, but it lost 200,000 (and most of its horses) getting there.

To some degree, given new features such as straggling, marching fatigue, weather effects and supply, a Russian campaign on a single huge map might be worthwhile. But that map would probably be beyond the limits of computer and design capabilities.

<center>
D.S. "Green Horse" Walter, Maréchal d'Empire
Duc des Pyramides, Comte de Normandie
Commandant la [url="http://home.arcor.de/dierk_Walter/NWC/3_VI_AdR_Home.htm"]3e Division Bavaroise[/url], L'Armée du Rhin
Commandant [url="http://home.arcor.de/dierk_Walter/NWC/EdM_start.htm"]L'Ecole de Mars[/url], L'Armée du Rhin
Commandant la Brigade de Grenadiers de la Moyenne Garde
Image</center>
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Charlie's OBs during the campaign allow for manpower reduction as the campaign wears on.

I think what you are looking for is more of a Kevin Zucker style approach to the campaign where battles are just fought in one hex and its the location of depots and supplies that matter.

This CAN be portrayed in the system but it takes ALOT of writing by the Scenario Designer.

Bill Peters
HPS Napoleonic Scenario Designer (Eckmuhl, Wagram)

[url="http://www.fireandmelee.net"]Fire and Melee Wargame site[/url]


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 17, 2006 7:17 pm 
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Sean Turner</i>
<Finishes 15,000-turn campaign on 100th birthday. Campaign is a DRAW, but earns 2 VP's and a campaign ribbon. Dies happy, though with no voice and both hands having been amputated above the wrist. St Peter is not impressed; says I should've wintered in Smolensk...>
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

[:D]
Oh yes, and player capabilities too. Just thinking aloud I think ... [:I]

<center>
D.S. "Green Horse" Walter, Maréchal d'Empire
Duc des Pyramides, Comte de Normandie
Commandant la [url="http://home.arcor.de/dierk_Walter/NWC/3_VI_AdR_Home.htm"]3e Division Bavaroise[/url], L'Armée du Rhin
Commandant [url="http://home.arcor.de/dierk_Walter/NWC/EdM_start.htm"]L'Ecole de Mars[/url], L'Armée du Rhin
Commandant la Brigade de Grenadiers de la Moyenne Garde
Image</center>


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