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PostPosted: Tue Jan 17, 2006 10:07 pm 
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<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Sir Muddy</i>
<br />What's this? A Frenchman whining about his army being inferior? Well, I never thought I would hear that. Drinks all around.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Funnily enough, I only got one response to my generous offer to play as the Austrians at Wagram (and he has just conceded). Perhaps the Allies prefer to blame the quality of their troops.

Lt Colonel Neville Worland
2nd Régiment de Dragons
Ier Corps de Réserve de Cavalerie
Army du Nord


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 17, 2006 10:13 pm 
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<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by D.S. Walter</i>
<br />Thinking more about it, I am beginning to doubt that the Russian campaign can be reasonably portrayed within the HPS system at all. In this system, the tactical outcome of battles decides the course of the campaign. But historically, winning or losing battles was nearly irrelevant for the outcome of the 1812 campaign, which was instead decided by strategic factors. The Grande Armée may have lost 30,000 men at Borodino, but it lost 200,000 (and most of its horses) getting there.

To some degree, given new features such as straggling, marching fatigue, weather effects and supply, a Russian campaign on a single huge map might be worthwhile. But that map would probably be beyond the limits of computer and design capabilities.
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Nontheless, battles were important and if Napoleon had won a big one the outcome might have been different. Perhaps recourse to a two-stage game would meet the need. The strategic component would be covered by Crown of Glory, with the actual battles decided using HPS. There would be some development of the "tactical" option offered in CoG, as this is for miniatures rules rather than HPS, but it should not be impossible.

Lt Colonel Neville Worland
2nd Régiment de Dragons
Ier Corps de Réserve de Cavalerie
Army du Nord


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 17, 2006 11:16 pm 
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<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by D.S. Walter</i>
<br /> At Borodino they barely managed to hold their own against an enemy who was about their own number, badly fed and badly horsed, and employed no more cunning stratagems than a series of frontal assaults. [/img][/center]
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

I suppose you can call it “barelyâ€


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 18, 2006 1:03 am 
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by August Dean</i>
Originally posted by D.S. Walter:
<i>A defender in improved positions should be quite able to hold himself against an attacker not markedly superior in numbers. </i>

- correct me if I am wrong but I think that’s what actually happened. [?]
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Yes. It's what you expect. That's why it's not remarkable.

Regarding Wellington's army, no, it was not superior in numbers, especially not at the start, because Nosey had a large detachment at Hal and Nappy hadn't detached anyone yet (from the Left and Reserve, that is; of course the Right was off chasing Blücher). (The widely accepted figures are ca. seventy-thousand Anglo-Allied vs. seventy-five thousand French.) And of course it *was* largely "crap" (your wording, but the Duke would support your observation).

<center>
D.S. "Green Horse" Walter, Maréchal d'Empire
Duc des Pyramides, Comte de Normandie
Commandant la [url="http://home.arcor.de/dierk_Walter/NWC/3_VI_AdR_Home.htm"]3e Division Bavaroise[/url], L'Armée du Rhin
Commandant [url="http://home.arcor.de/dierk_Walter/NWC/EdM_start.htm"]L'Ecole de Mars[/url], L'Armée du Rhin
Commandant la Brigade de Grenadiers de la Moyenne Garde
Image</center>


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 18, 2006 2:13 am 
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by August Dean</i>
“Half a Russian army runâ€


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 18, 2006 9:33 am 
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Dierk, Alexey,

About this event at Krasnoi. A division of Young Guard attacked at night hours a russian division. Unfortunately I do not remember it's number, commander etc. If it's needed I'll find the book and give complete info. Anyway, the attack was a complete surprise for russians and all of the troops started the fight in a state close to what we all call rout. Nevertheles defending force had found courage not only to stand and fight but even to carry out several counterattacks. But it all way in vain and the Guard has taken the ground. Actually the village (which name I do not remember either [:I]). The odds were equal or slightly in favour of the french. Do not forget they were Guards starting a surprise attack. Russian ordinary infantry who suffered much more badly than Napoleons Guard and who was absolutely surprised managed to stand and fight for several hours. I remember the eyewitnesses called this very fight the most horrible even during the all war! And these were the men who saw Borodino, Maloyaroslavets and Berezinu. Several hours of night fighting in a burning village when both friends and foes were often cought together in a burning houses and didn't stop fighting to get out of there! It seems to me this example proves you wrong Dierk.

The following day several regiments of the Hessian Guard, attached to the Young Guard by that time, if memory helps of course, screened Krasnoi from possible russian attack. The attack didn't happen and the guardsmen had to stand under fire for several hours. And of course they were not "so dumb that they only filled the space of their killed camarades but didn't leave the ground" they were "so brave they only filled the space of their killed camarades but still stood as a stonewall". BTW two common discriptions of the same event. But the first one is somehow always used for russian troops while the second one can be used for any other force. At least I recall passages like that about French, Hessians, Prussians, Brits and even Amercans. But never Russians. In foreign literature of course. Strange, isn't it?

<center>Image</center>
<center><b>Eyo Imperatorskogo Velichestva Leib-Kirassirskogo polku
General-Mayor Anton Valeryevich Kosyanenko
commander of Little Russian grenadiers regiment</b></center>


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 18, 2006 11:42 am 
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Anton & Alexey,
no doubt the courage and braveness of common Russian soldiers throughout history is undisputed. And it's irrelevant, that those men offered their lives for the most cruel tyrants and ugly regimes. The Russian soldier was one of the most disciplined, steady and fearsome opponent not only during the Napoleonic wars.

No doubt about that. But here we're talking only in terms of tactical simmulation for a game. Just as Paco pointed out, there are several inaccuracies, which make NRC highly unbalanced.

I've played a lot of NRC, both as the French and the Russian. If the scenario is well balanced and the opponents are of more or less equal skill, the side playing the Russian has at least 70% chance for winning! That's from my own experience...



<center>Maréchal T. Nowacki
<b>V KORPUS ARMII RENU</b>
Image
Comte de Liege
Duc de la Moskova
Image
Chasseurs a Cheval de la Vieille Garde</center>


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 18, 2006 2:13 pm 
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<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Tomasz</i>
<br />Anton & Alexey,
If the scenario is well balanced and the opponents are of more or less equal skill, the side playing the Russian has at least 70% chance for winning! That's from my own experience...

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

If you make up a hypothetical battle with absolutely equal force and opponents I agree the Russian player has more chances to win. This is purely due to golden morale bonus. I do not think HPS algorithm makes Russians melee better or fire better even though Marechal Paco made a relevant point on Russian artillery and Cossacks. I agree on Cossacks but have no idea about unicorns. However, I came a cross a couple of sources where contemporaries were praising these weapons.

NRC, as a simulation game, is based on historical events. So if someone thinks it is remarkably hard to win against the Russians at for instance Borodino so… well bad choice for French player. Choose another battle. The war was not a gentlemen’s duel. Similarly I can say, it is remarkably hard to win against the British and Prussians at Waterloo as French are outnumbered. Again, if you do not like the historical way choose another one. HPS offers a plenty of such battles.

Obviously the intention of designers was to make historical battles as historical as possible. The question is weather you agree with existence of Russian Golden morale or not. That is where you start arguing. Deirk is obviously disagree with that and his opinion is based on “anecdotical evidenceâ€


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 18, 2006 7:03 pm 
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Alexey,

I fully agree that a historical simulation MUST accurately reflect the historical record, otherwise we should all go back to playing chess. [:D] The question raised by this thread, however, is whether the NRC oob is an accurate reflection of that record.

Putting aside the question of whether the Rusian infantry merit a special morale bonus, what do you make of the other issues I raised? I will readily confess that I cannot read Russian and am hence at the mercy of accounts written by non-Russians and their inherent bias. I would hope, however, that you and your Russian colleagues could shed further light on these matters. For instance, in my previous post I took issue with the fact that Russian dragoons were rated as elite ("A" morale) heavy cavalry. What do the Russian authorities say on this point?

Unlike the various other aspects of the HPS games, the oob and pdt tables are something that we, the consumers, can readily modify and adapt. My hope is that, through a reasoned discussion, we can reach a consensus on what, if any, changes should be made and adopted by the members of the NWC, akin to the development of the NS modifications for NIR.

Why bother? At least for me, the greatest joy in participating in an accurate simulation is that it broadens my understanding and appreciation of the historical events I am simulating. And after all, what better testament can we create to the noble victory won in 1812 by the Russian nation than to appreciate that it was won by the courage and determination of ordinary men, faithful to the <i>Rodina</i>, rather than demi-gods? [^]

Regards,

Paco

<i>Maréchal</i> M. Francisco Palomo
<i>Prince d'Essling, Grande Duc d'Abrantes et
Comte de Marseille
Commandant - Division de Cavalerie de la Vieille Garde </i>
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 18, 2006 8:23 pm 
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by August Dean</i>
NRC, as a simulation game, is based on historical events. So if someone thinks it is remarkably hard to win against the Russians at for instance Borodino so… well bad choice for French player. Choose another battle. The war was not a gentlemen’s duel. Similarly I can say, it is remarkably hard to win against the British and Prussians at Waterloo as French are outnumbered. Again, if you do not like the historical way choose another one. HPS offers a plenty of such battles.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Hm, strangely I think the way you portray the argument is the contrary of what I actually said. You make it sound like I were asking to regularly win battles that were historically lost by the French, which would be a strange desire in a wargamer and historian.

My impression (and it appears the one of others as well) is that it is remarkably hard to win those battles in NRC that were historically won by the French, i.e. practically all in the campaign. Whether it makes the historical outcome likely, in a majority of cases (all else being equal) is really the acid test of a simulation.

If you think it's OK that, all else being equal--on a chess bord--, the Russians win 70% of their battles I would be interested in your interpretation why the Russian army choose to see the French all the way to Moscow and back without seriously challenging them to battle more than once, and especially without winning a battle.

Finally, just because I have read only three books on this particular campaign I am certainly no expert on this particular campaign. On the other hand, I have studied the history of warfare all my life, and in fact as a profession, and while I may not know every detail about the individual battles in this campaign, I am not entirely unqualified to tell the likely from the unlikely as regards overall interpretation. That's my job in fact. So please don't make it sound like my opinion here were totally irrelevant.

<center>
D.S. "Green Horse" Walter, Maréchal d'Empire
Duc des Pyramides, Comte de Normandie
Commandant la [url="http://home.arcor.de/dierk_Walter/NWC/3_VI_AdR_Home.htm"]3e Division Bavaroise[/url], L'Armée du Rhin
Commandant [url="http://home.arcor.de/dierk_Walter/NWC/EdM_start.htm"]L'Ecole de Mars[/url], L'Armée du Rhin
Commandant la Brigade de Grenadiers de la Moyenne Garde
Image</center>


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 18, 2006 8:35 pm 
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Kosyanenko</i>
The following day several regiments of the Hessian Guard, attached to the Young Guard by that time, if memory helps of course, screened Krasnoi from possible russian attack. The attack didn't happen and the guardsmen had to stand under fire for several hours. And of course they were not "so dumb that they only filled the space of their killed camarades but didn't leave the ground" they were "so brave they only filled the space of their killed camarades but still stood as a stonewall". BTW two common discriptions of the same event. But the first one is somehow always used for russian troops while the second one can be used for any other force. At least I recall passages like that about French, Hessians, Prussians, Brits and even Amercans. But never Russians. In foreign literature of course. Strange, isn't it?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Point taken. The conscripted peasant usually doesn't have a very good press in popular military history. [;)]

But I think you will be able to find examples of outstanding feats by non-elite troops from practically every war. In a Zulu war game, would you rate the entire 24th Foot "A+" for the unbelievable stand one company made at Rourke's Drift? Or, at Ligny, a Landwehr battalion formed square and withstood three charges by French heavy cavalry. These are the troops popular English-language campaign histories tell us were so inept that they were practically useless beyond providing some mass for a crude punch. So, do we rate them the same as regulars, "B"? Or do we go by the general impression this sort of troops gave and give them an "E"? Does the 1st Minnesota at Gettysburg deserve its "A"? The 2nd Maine? Or do all the Federal volunteers?

<center>
D.S. "Green Horse" Walter, Maréchal d'Empire
Duc des Pyramides, Comte de Normandie
Commandant la [url="http://home.arcor.de/dierk_Walter/NWC/3_VI_AdR_Home.htm"]3e Division Bavaroise[/url], L'Armée du Rhin
Commandant [url="http://home.arcor.de/dierk_Walter/NWC/EdM_start.htm"]L'Ecole de Mars[/url], L'Armée du Rhin
Commandant la Brigade de Grenadiers de la Moyenne Garde
Image</center>


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 18, 2006 9:36 pm 
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Great! We all agree now that a clear formal procedure to evaluate quality of the troops is needed. How to do that properly is another question but if we do we should do it in the same way for all the forces present. If such a thing is done there will be no need in golden morale and other "adjustments". I will renew my old thread about the quality estimation. If I found it of course[:I]

Regarding the unicornes. Yes, they were a hybrid of a gun and a howitzer. Yes, they had shroter range and they were less accurate, specially while taking distant shots. But... The caliber of unicorns was measured in "pud" a russian measure equal to 16 kg. I'm not sure in "which" pounds the caliber of russian guns was measured. British .457 kg? Russian .408 kg? Austrian (somewhat .5 kg)? I'll take the British. 1/2 pud -heavy, used in position companies- unicorn, measured in pounds had caliber of 17.5 pounds. 1/4 pud unicorn - light used by horse and light coys - had 8.75 pounds caliber. Plus the unicorns had a very specific construction of the barreel. It all meant that unicorns were almost twice as effective as an ordibary guns while firing with canister. So yes the fire effectiveness should be reconsidered. Decreasing the range and effectiveness at distant shots and increasing it significantly at the cansiter range.

If it came to that. Two more points:
1. If memory helps french batteries were not armed with one type of guns as well. There were 4 or 5 guns and 2 or 1 howitzer. Am I right?
2. Russian systemes had the smallest wight of all. French were almost as light but only almost. And all of the german, polish, netherlands etc. guns were much more heavy and much less maneuverable. Specially in our countryside[^]. So it would be great to have different movement allowances for th different kinds of arty.

Now, about the dragoons. I'll devide your question into two. Were they heavies? Were they A rated?

In our games "heavy" means a cavalry unit armed with heavy cavalry sword (in russian it's called "palash" but I can't find a proper translation) - straight .95-1.05 meter long heavy sword. Also usually the rode heavy tall horses and consisted of tall men. Russian dragoons were armed with palash, carabine and two pistoles. They rode heavy horses - minimal height 156 cm (not less than 2 arshine 2 vershka= 2*71cm+2*7cm=156cm). About the men. I can say nothing. The tallest men were taken into cuirassiers of course. BTW horses there were really huge, not less than 170 cm height! So yes, they were heavies.

The point was that they can't be rated A because the best men were taken into the Guard, Hussars, Uhlans and Cuirassiers regiments. I will have to disagree here. The thing is that hussars and uhlans regiments were not manned by conscripts. They were manned by volontiers who must have been free men. And there were lots of poor nobles who served in ranks. So the conscripts were devided between the cuirassiers and dragoons regiments. And as I mentioned not by the abilities but according to the height.

You may say a lot of dragoons regiments were raised in 1810 and 1811. Quite right, but all these regiments, as well as several "old" ones are rated B.

<center>Image</center>
<center><b>Eyo Imperatorskogo Velichestva Leib-Kirassirskogo polku
General-Mayor Anton Valeryevich Kosyanenko
commander of Little Russian grenadiers regiment</b></center>


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 18, 2006 11:09 pm 
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<i>Originally posted by D.S. Walter</i>:
"My impression (and it appears the one of others as well) is that it is remarkably hard to win those battles in NRC that were historically won by the French, i.e. practically all in the campaign"

Again we should look back in history.
What are those battle historically won by French?

I cant think of any significant one in that campaign won by any side (apart from Tarutino won by Russians). Furthermore, in my opinion, in strategic sense the outcome was mostly on the Russian side apart from Berezina. But after loss of Moscow Kutuzov was just trying to minimize Russian casualties. At that point he was sure that the war was won and (I will repeat myself) did not actually want to "distinguish" Russian army for the English cause.

Deirk, your point is relevant in general, for example with regard to issues raised by Paco. But not in a sense that Russian army was almost running every battle. You acknowledged that your sources are questionable and I believe there is no point to take them seriously and make quick conclusions like “they barely managedâ€


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 18, 2006 11:24 pm 
Some general remarks:

1. The suspicion of bias in itself doesn't mean or prove anything. If all French writers would agree that the Russian soldier of 1812 was a dumb peasant of little military value and all Russian writers would agree that, conversely, he was a highly motivated effective defender of the motherland, that would tell us something about French-Russian antagonism but not much about the Russian soldier. In absence of other evidence, both interpretations have an equal claim to be true. There is no law that says biased accounts are per se false, or that the truth has to be in the middle. It's history, not math.

2. Still, while in history there is no law of probability, nor any laws, and the improbable is always at least possible, there is still the rules of plausible interpretation which apply until conclusive evidence to the contrary can be provided. Roughly it's the same as the law that reportedly exists in natural science which says that, all else being equal, the simplest interpretation tends to be true.

Applied to the 1812 campaign, that means that, if we have the following suppositions--

a. The combined Russian armies were about the size of the Grande Armée at Borodino, and outnumbered it significantly afterwards until the conclusion of the campaign. (Does anyone challenge that statement?)

b. The Russian armies did not effectively contest the advance of the Grande Armée until Borodino, and did not make a concerted and effective effort to impede its retreat after Maloyaroslavets. (Will anyone challenge this? I think one doesn't need intimate knowledge of the individual engagements in the campaign to prove it.)

c. By doing so, the Russian armies accepted the devastation of a large stretch of their country, the destruction of their capital, and the escape of the essential cadres of the Grande Armée that enabled its resurrection (if fundamentally weakened) in 1813 and again in 1815. (I think that's evident and doesn't need further proof.)

--then what is the plausible interpretation? That they did all that in spite of the highly superior quality of their armies? Historically, on average inferior armies avoid battle; superior armies seek it. Now if the Russian armies were both numerically at least the equal, after Moscow definitely superior to the Grande Armée, *and* they were also of better quality (as per Poruchik Alexey Tartyshev's claim), then why did they avoid battle against an inferior army, accepting considerable damage to private and public property? Of course, it's possible; humans don't always act rational, and there was, afterall, McClellan at Yorktown. But since it's highly unlikely, it needs conclusive proof.

3. Battles: As I said, am not all that well read in the tactical battles of the campaign. I am genuinly looking forward to evidence of a conclusive Russian victory in the campaign, preferably one won by inferior numbers, that would substantiate the claim of the superior quality of the Russian soldier, compared to his French/Allied counterpart. Personally, I would count most battles in the campaign as somewhere between tactically inconclusive and outright Russian defeat, with the arguable exception of Vinkovo and Valutina. Some combine tactical defeat with a crushing operational defeat (Berezina). I can't wait to hear more from people who have studied the battles.

4. I can also summarize my point in a single observation: if NRC is an accurate portrayal of the Russian as compared to the French army, the Russian campaign would have ended at Smolensk. Because I doubt there is any way in which the Grande Armée can defeat the combined Russian armies there in the game.

5. Finally, my friends, please don't think I have to biased because I carry a French baton. I am greatly fascinated with the Russian campaign and my sympathies are definitely as much with the Russian as with the Allied side. (Afterall, I am half Southern German, half Prussian, and even though you guys sold us out at Tilsit, you liberated us from the French yoke after Kalish. [8D] And also our best generals fought on your side.) At one point I almost joined the Russian army in the club and only the fact that I have no clue of the language kept me because I didn't want to get all the terms wrong. [;)] I have definitely played NRC more often from the Russian side and enjoyed leading this fine army, but now that I know the other side I am somewhat disappointed because it appears it was not my superior generalship that won most my NRC battles, playing Russian, but rather the bias of the game.

6. Summing up, I think I agree with Anton (and Rich said it several times before) that there should be a formal process for establishing unit quality, according to training and experience of the units in question, not according to how we think an army should behave in the game. Unit quality is a very poor shortcut to historical battle results. What it can do, unhistorically, to mess up a game is amply born out by the Reb supermen in the BG ACW games. And in NRC it seems to be worse because unit quality seems to have been used to make unhistorical battle victories possible to achieve a historical campaign outcome.

<center>
D.S. "Green Horse" Walter, Maréchal d'Empire
Duc des Pyramides, Comte de Normandie
Commandant la [url="http://home.arcor.de/dierk_Walter/NWC/3_VI_AdR_Home.htm"]3e Division Bavaroise[/url], L'Armée du Rhin
Commandant [url="http://home.arcor.de/dierk_Walter/NWC/EdM_start.htm"]L'Ecole de Mars[/url], L'Armée du Rhin
Commandant la Brigade de Grenadiers de la Moyenne Garde
Image</center>


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 18, 2006 11:34 pm 
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by August Dean</i>
You acknowledged that your sources are questionable ...
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

I did not. I said they were no specialized battle histories. I am beginning to think that maybe you don't know these two books. Britten-Austin is a trilogy based on a huge number of accounts of campaign participants from the Allied side. Primary sources, to be sure, if printed ones. The compilation is somewhat chaotic, but after 1200 pages you can't fail to have a rather good idea of the campaign. Zamoyski has studied and used primary sources in the eastern languages extensively, but was more interested in the everyday life of the campaign participants than in the details of the battles. And of course, Chandler is a reference work whose overall value I have yet to see being questioned. (His spelling of German place names is awful though.)

So, what are the books or sources you are drawing your conclusions from? I think it's time to end the cheap bashing of the amount of my background reading and come forward with some proof.

<center>
D.S. "Green Horse" Walter, Maréchal d'Empire
Duc des Pyramides, Comte de Normandie
Commandant la [url="http://home.arcor.de/dierk_Walter/NWC/3_VI_AdR_Home.htm"]3e Division Bavaroise[/url], L'Armée du Rhin
Commandant [url="http://home.arcor.de/dierk_Walter/NWC/EdM_start.htm"]L'Ecole de Mars[/url], L'Armée du Rhin
Commandant la Brigade de Grenadiers de la Moyenne Garde
Image</center>


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