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PostPosted: Fri Aug 31, 2018 1:50 pm 
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I thought the same thing.

It would be difficult to maneuver in line with disruption "on"

btw........You and your team did a terrific job on this game.

I am really in the dark on this period and it will take me some time to get up to speed.

I really like the look and feel of the game.

I mentioned to Rich, that I wish there were two day battles.....more maneuvering of forces.

He says they are looking at that.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 31, 2018 2:02 pm 
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Yeah, we've been in contact about that.

It's a bit tricky for a few reasons. The first one is that none of the battles we covered were two days. Generally one side or the other was pretty thoroughly beaten, and on occasion like Zorndorf, one (or both) generals just decided to pull out of what was still an indecisive battle overnight.

The maneuver thing is a bit harder. These armies really had a great deal less flexibility than the armies of the Napoleonic Era in their tactical and operational movements. To deploy an army from column of march to battle array really was something of a "snakepath" evolution. For instance, one common approach was for the army to march in column to a given point, and then make a 90 degree turn, with each following battalion pivoting when they reached that point. When the lead battalion reach its designated point, it would stop, and then the entire train would pivot and shift into line formation.

Not many gamers today have that kind of patience :frenchlol:

That doesn't even mention the whole concept of regimental precedence. At Torgau, Daun set up his line facing south, and when he found out that Frederick had gone on a long flank march and was approach from the north, he had to reverse his position. However, did he simply have his troops about face, so that his former rear line was now the front? Noooooooooooooooooooo, that's entirely too easy. Instead, he had his former front line march, in snakepath, around so that they were in the lead position, so that the Kaiser Regiment (the senior regiment at the battle) had the position of honor as the right hand unit of the front line.

But again, I rather doubt gamers would much care to make sure that the senior regiment is in the place of honor :sly: So, from the point of accuracy, you can argue that tying the hands of gamers is a bit more true to the era. Of course, I do "get" that there are times that kind of movement based battle is more fun than a straight ahead slugfest.


That said, we're going to do a few things to open up a few more battles like that. In the meantime, I do suggest you look at the full day versions of Prague, Kolin, Rossbach and Leuthen, as they do give more room for approach maneuvers.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 31, 2018 2:16 pm 
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Would really like to hear more about "The Art of War" in that era, people surely got the wrong impression of how combat was done back then because they think it's not different to the Napi era.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 31, 2018 2:23 pm 
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Christian Hecht wrote:
Would really like to hear more about "The Art of War" in that era, people surely got the wrong impression of how combat was done back then because they think it's not different to the Napi era.


One of the books in the Bibliography is an awesome resource. "Anatomy of Victory" by Nosworthy. He's done similar books for the Napoleonic Era and ACW era. Looks like you can get a used copy of Anatomy at Amazon for about $35 right now.


https://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing ... +nosworthy

https://www.amazon.com/Musket-Cannon-Sw ... +nosworthy

https://www.amazon.com/Bloody-Crucible- ... +nosworthy

Another interesting book is a pretty recent biography of Guibert, the theoretician who really transitioned the French army of the SYW to the Revolutionary Army

https://www.amazon.com/Guibert-Father-N ... ds=guibert

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 31, 2018 2:26 pm 
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I can give a bit more detail from my perspective a bit later, but need to head out for awhile.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 31, 2018 4:31 pm 
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I get into this a bit in the designer notes, but the rise of cadenced marching is one of those things that really creates the warfare of the SYW. Until I had started to study for the game, I hadn't realized that cadenced marching had effectively been lost in the west since the days of the Roman Empire until the early 18th Century. It doesn't seem like a big thing, but if you're on a simple road march, having everyone "in step" really tends to make the whole move faster (as otherwise, your mob tends to move at the rate of the guy with the slowest amble.) If anything, having a consistent step and rate of step is even more important when it comes to moving as a formation and changing formation.

As with a number of other things in the 18th Century, the return of cadenced marching came from the Prussians, as it was instituted during the days of Frederick's father.

With that simple step (pun intentional), much more elaborate and polished movements because possible on the battlefield. However, at this point in time, what was lacking was flexibility. The movements were efficient, precise, clockwork like, but at the same time, they introduced a very real rigidity. Frederick was always experimenting with new ideas, but even at that, the rigidity never left his army.

That rigidity was reinforced by a real "rigidity of thought" in European leadership at the same time. The whole "science of war" thing. This wasn't new. If you think to Vauban and his very precise rules of how to build a fortress, and how to take a fortress you see that. Everything must be done "just so". That's what set the great leaders of the era of Linear Warfare apart (Frederick, Marlborough, Eugene, Saxe), they were willing to "break the rules" when it came to it.

Yet, even when Frederick broke the rules, he was still bound by the conventions of the day. If you look at Leuthen, while his classic oblique attack was "new", it also worked to the clockwork methods of the day, leaving his army in a conventional formation in the conventional way.

So, armies in that era had a pretty standard battle formation that they would set up in. One good place to see it in game is Gross Jaegersdorf
Attachment:
Marching to doom.jpg


Having the arty out in front is a bit odd, but you can see the traditional formation pretty clearly here. You have a front line of infantry, with a 2nd line 200-300m behind. (At times there will be a 3rd line serving as the reserve. If you notice, at the ends of the two infantry lines, there are infantry units arranged to seal off the ends of the "box". Those would typically be grenadiers, and they were to prevent enemy cav from looping in on the rear of the front line. Then, your own friendly cavalry would be out on the wings.

Even at Leuthen, after his brilliant march to the Austrian flank for the Oblique Assault, you can see that classic formation in large part.


By the time of the French Revolution, armies (especially the French) had managed to figure out some ways to be much more flexible, (though we still have waaaaaaaaay too much freedom as gamers.)

I'll post up some other stuff on other aspects later.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 31, 2018 4:53 pm 
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What I think as far as tactics is every regiment pretty much did it's own thing according to their individual commander's orders. Some would kneel the first rank, some would pass up muskets, other's would kneel in order of ranking fire. I doubt marching speeds were much different in 7YW because in Napoleonics they're pretty consistent. A quicktime of ~108 paces/min (81m) in column march and ordinary step of ~75 paces/min (56m) in line. Very difficult to become 'disordered' in open ground such slow speeds. Prussians would march 4 days/week while their lazy enemies would do about 2. Big problem with the Allies vs. Prussians is they were advancing most of the time and didn't reconniteur properly so time and again Frederick just marched around a hill after seeing their route and ripped them apart.
Haven't read very much about 7YW and these are assumptions. At the tactical level I doubt we'll ever know what really happened from the early 19th century and before. So many contradictory reports on what happened in every major engagement.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 01, 2018 6:12 pm 
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IMPORTANT: Scroll down to get the latest version of my graphics file. I also will be posting this up to the SDC eventually along with any other graphics files I update.

I posted (here) a new 2DSymbolsLG file for use in the TSYW game. Save the original file and put it in a folder called "Default Art" in your Map folder. Then unzip the file I uploaded here to your Map folder.

The counters have the usual depth rather than the newer flat counter look.

Not sure if I need to make a set for the 2DSymbolsSM file as the counters at that zoom level are not as easy to distinguish.

I like the new map look. Reminds me of the old board games we played by GDW and Martial Enterprises, etc.

:thumbsup: :frenchsalute:


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Last edited by Bill Peters on Sun Sep 02, 2018 10:02 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 01, 2018 7:43 pm 
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This is just my offhand thoughts on scenarios people may want to look at. Take them for whatever you want. I mention it, because I've been kind of surprised to see people on all kinds of different boards playing Hochkirch of all things. The Prussians are outnumbered and surrounded, with Austrians coming from everywhere (Daun really doesn't get enough credit for that beauty). There's a version with the Austrians being fixed for a time, but if you want competitive HtH play, it wouldn't be my suggestion.

There are battles in the war that are so lopsided one way or the other, I'd put them fairly low on the list. One can try to balance victory conditions, but they're still problematic:

Hochkirch
Moys
Maxen
Gross-Jaegersdorf
Kay-Palzig
Lutterberg

Then there's Rossbach(afternoon). A wild situation. I'm not sure that anything resembling the historical rout of the Franco-Imperial forces is possible, but I do think it's possible for a badly outnumbered Prussian force to give the F-I fits. They've got a very superior position at start.

All that said, my personal suggestions? (Pending all you guys playing and giving feedback from someone not on the team :russianveryhappy: )

Prague (any version)
Kolin (any version)
Minden (either version)
Warburg (testers raved about this one)
Zorndorf

All the rest are somewhere "in between". Some like Rossbach and Torgau are so weird that I expect pretty decisive wins in both directions, depending on how the game rolls.

There may well be some I'm forgetting, but those would be my personal first suggestions.

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 02, 2018 12:11 am 
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I was going to try Zorndorf with someone in the Blitz club. First, its very well known. Second, its a title that will get played a lot I think. Third, its a battle I remember from the old GDW Frank Chadwick era :)

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 02, 2018 7:25 am 
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Bill Peters wrote:
I posted (here) a new 2DSymbolsLG file for use in the TSYW game. Save the original file and put it in a folder called "Default Art" in your Map folder. Then unzip the file I uploaded here to your Map folder.

The counters have the usual depth rather than the newer flat counter look.

Not sure if I need to make a set for the 2DSymbolsSM file as the counters at that zoom level are not as easy to distinguish.

I like the new map look. Reminds me of the old board games we played by GDW and Martial Enterprises, etc.

:thumbsup: :frenchsalute:




I don't see any difference between your file and the current 2dsymbosLg.

What am i not seeing?

I put them side by side and they look the same.

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 02, 2018 10:01 am 
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Clint Matthews wrote:
Bill Peters wrote:
I posted (here) a new 2DSymbolsLG file for use in the TSYW game. Save the original file and put it in a folder called "Default Art" in your Map folder. Then unzip the file I uploaded here to your Map folder.

The counters have the usual depth rather than the newer flat counter look.

Not sure if I need to make a set for the 2DSymbolsSM file as the counters at that zoom level are not as easy to distinguish.

I like the new map look. Reminds me of the old board games we played by GDW and Martial Enterprises, etc.

:thumbsup: :frenchsalute:




I don't see any difference between your file and the current 2dsymbosLg.

What am i not seeing?

I put them side by side and they look the same.


They are different. Take a look:

Image

As you can see the older style counter had depth to it.

I noted that my counter color was wrong so I have corrected it and here is the updated 2DSymbols file.


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Bill Peters - Prussian civilian observer
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 02, 2018 2:53 pm 
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my fault............I was looking at the graphic of the counter instead of the shape in the upper part of the file. The default counters are flat and yours have depth....looks good.

I do like the "Leipzig" color.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 06, 2018 7:46 am 
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Congrats Gary and to all the folks who worked on the game with you! A long time in the making, but glad to see it here! :thumbsup: Can't wait to get my copy....

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 07, 2018 12:21 pm 
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For what its worth: please add TSYW game to the club. Its close enough to where we can honestly say that its part of the "Musket and Cannon" type games we play here and it will satisfy those that want to play it here rather than join a new club. The Blitz will pick it up for their Musket and Pike ladder I am thinking. Its a no brainer for the CCC to pick it up too. I imagine that Mark Jones club has it as well.

For nations: as we are dumping out the Maneuver scoring and going to Fights this fits in perfect. Gary (Austrian) can fight Scott (Prussian) and count it as a Fight. Makes sense. Same with Russians vs. Prussians and French vs. Prussians.

But I still prefer to fight a French member and see him running for Paris after my Prussians have crashed their perfume party!

:frenchlol:

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