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PostPosted: Mon Jun 22, 2020 4:36 am 
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The default is for No Melee Elimination being off. What do folks feel about that? I tend to play with that option checked.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 22, 2020 4:09 pm 
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I agree with Mr. Moss and play with No Melee Elimination checked to ON.

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 05, 2020 9:23 pm 
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Well I think that now they have the "Defensive Fire" option checked ON as default so really the "No Melee Elimination" rule being off is no surprise. Since the Melee Phase is used you can no longer Blitz like you used to. Not that I am into using that Defensive Fire rule but that is why its not checked.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 06, 2020 4:19 am 
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That makes sense. Thanks Bill.


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 10, 2020 10:45 pm 
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Mssrs.,

I am troubled by the prospect of playing with the “Defensive Fire” option ON. Aside from the fact that it would extend the number of exchanges required to complete a turn, it would mark a return to the old Battleground tactic of checking an offensive in its tracks by deploying clouds of skirmishers in advance of the main defensive line. Additionally, I would infer that this option effectively ends defensive opportunity fire, once again allowing an attacker’s units to move from one defilade position to another with impunity. The careful deployment of one’s units, coupled with using the NME option and the preservation of a reserve for waging counter-attacks, is a much better antidote to “blitzkrieg” tactics.

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Paco

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 11, 2020 8:44 am 
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Default on my had manual def fire off, which is good as I don't use it.

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 11, 2020 3:08 pm 
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The new patches will set def fire to ON. I guess with the Spanish titles it was finally obviously to everyone that the auto def fire was useless and by this it was useless to deploy in line at all, what was a fundamental thing in the Napoleonic era.
Besides doing phases usually protects for blitz tactics that only work in turn gameplay.

If you have skirmishers counter with your own skirmishers.
And you can cover your flanks with them too, shifting a skirmisher unit the way that it covers the hexes left or right of the main units front field of fire neglects the flanking bonus if attacks come from these hexes. Basically if you cover all approaches with skirmishers there could be no attack done that gives the flanking bonus.
Take a look here:
viewtopic.php?f=77&t=16288

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 11, 2020 5:48 pm 
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Christian,

I would to beg to differ about the importance of auto defensive fire. A battery commanding an approach route generally inflicts significant casualties on an advancing opponent.

More importantly, skirmishers were never meant to block the advance of formed units. Their mission was to harass and attrition formed bodies, but could not possibly prevent formed units from simply brushing then aside. If pressed by formed units, they would rapidly withdraw. Given that the game engine makes no allowance for the automatic displacement of skirmishers, the single-phase option is the most historical work around: a skirmishers screen can be pushed aside via melee with your own skirmishers or formed units.

En passant, I get tired of people whining about “blitzkrieg tactics.” In Napoleonic battles, if a defensive line was sundered the remainder of the position would be rapidly rolled up by fresh troops exploiting the rupture. If you don’t want to be “blitzed”: a) Avoid contact until you have suitable defensive terrain and/or adequate support; b) Maintain a reserve that can counter-attack to restore breaches in you position.

Regards,

Paco

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 11, 2020 6:21 pm 
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He's (Paco) right, you know.

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 11, 2020 8:36 pm 
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Casualties matter not much if you are unable to disorder the attacker. Auto def fire comes in at only 50% fire value, and in case of infantry is often not triggered at all because of the short range, and the smaller field of fire compared to the CW series does also not help. In turns checks if a Moral Test is triggered are done each time a unit is fired on, that sounds fine but it is not because checks take casualties in ratio to unit size into account, so half casualties means just much less chance that a Moral Test is triggered. My experience is that you are unlikely to stop an assault if you rely on auto def fire because it's never triggered when you really need it and if it is triggered it is unable to stop the attacker.

As for skirmishers, yes that is a pity and a handling similar to cavalry charges(not overrunning but displacing) is what this game needs. Till then it's surely not unrealistic to "protect" your assaults with your own skirmishers, it's not like only defender use skirmishers

Finally, alone the short 10min turns should prevent Blitzkrieg, if not then one using the wrong ORs.

In the end there is a reason why a we have this new disorder OR based on the threat value of the defensive line and that phases are now default.

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 11, 2020 8:53 pm 
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Changes for Campaign Waterloo 1.08

- Melee across a hexside or into a hex that would cause Disorder results
in the same Melee penalty as if the unit was Disordered.
- Units defending in Melee fire at 100% fire.

Changes for Wellingtons's Peninsular War V1.0
- Melee across a hexside or into a hex that would cause Disorder results
in the same Melee penalty as if the unit was Disordered.
- Units defending in Melee fire at 100% fire.

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 11, 2020 9:09 pm 
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Yes IF fire is trigger. At the Blitz there are not few who complaint over the years that def fire is triggered to seldom. And there the fact is also know, that is why again and again customization like lower max stacking or house rules rise up to make the attacking force smaller.
Inf vs INf only give 3 chances(1st at range 2, 2nd at range 1, 3rd when melee is set) in which def fire could trigger and my experience is that it's likely triggered in less then 1 out of 3 cases, that is why units walk up to a defender, set melee and melee without def fire being triggered.

Anyhow, I take a manual def fire phase were I can decide when and how my units fire any time over the roulette that the auto def fire is.

BTW, look at the latest patch, they made the new OR even stronger:

Changes for Campaign Waterloo 1.08a:
- Change so that disordered units which fail the Threat test become routed, when the Movement Threat Disorder optional rule is selected.

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 11, 2020 9:12 pm 
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Same as in Wellington's War. It's fun to order a unit to do something and it doesn't. The detached unit rules will also help the defender.

... and defense in depth.

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 11, 2020 10:52 pm 
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Mssrs.,
Auto Defensive fire was set at 50% precisely because a defender would fire multiple times in a single turn. On average an infantry unit will fire twice, hence 2x50%=100%. Meanwhile, artillery, with its longer range, will frequently fire many more times.

That said, one of the inherent flaws of the Tiller Napoleonic game engine is the emphasis on firepower and sheer numbers. Contemporary treatises uniformly emphasized that only shock action (e.g., “melee”) could lead to a successful assault. If an extended firefight developed, the attack was doomed to failure and could only be salvaged by the commitment of fresh troops that would be willing to close with the enemy. Most casualties in Napoleonic battles were caused by artillery, followed by casualties inflicted on troops that had broken and were running away. Given the limited range and accuracy of musket fire, casualties from infantry fire were seldom decisive.

Essentially, the engagements were decided by morale, Ie., an extended game of “chicken.” If the defenders did not panic, held their fire until the attackers were at point blank range (30 yards) and then stood their ground and/or counter-charged, the front ranks of the attacker would disorder and the attack would generally fail. By the same token, if the attackers advanced in good order and did not flinch when the defenders loosed their defensive fire, the defenders would crack and run away. That’s how a battalion of the Middle Guard routed an entire division of Prussians at Plancenoit. If the updates incorporate some type of morale check for attacking units that would be a significant improvement of the game engine,

Regards,

Paco

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 12, 2020 12:01 am 
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Francisco Palomo wrote:
Auto Defensive fire was set at 50% precisely because a defender would fire multiple times in a single turn. On average an infantry unit will fire twice, hence 2x50%=100%. Meanwhile, artillery, with its longer range, will frequently fire many more times.

That def fire is triggered 50% of the time is a dream at best.
Looking at how checks for Moral Test are done it's clear that twice as many casualties do not mean twice as high chance to trigger a Moral Test.
Milkmaid calculation:
A 750 bat. takes 25 casualties, that results in a chance of 25% to trigger a Moral Test.
A 750 bat. takes 50 casualties, that results in a chance of 40% to trigger a Moral Test.
That means if really half the time def fire is triggered you get a higher chance(50% vs 40%) to disorder, but that is just not the case.
Maybe someone is bored enough to make a test with a considerable force to have a statistically relevant number of tests to prove where the trigger is really set, at least closely. Or we finally get a note from one of the programmers on this topic. Anyhow I say it is at best 1/3 or less, if it's at 50% I go to Elba.

A final note to this, someone at the Blitz mentioned that the probability was supposed to be raised with the new patch series. As this is missing in the change log, maybe purposely, Waterloo could indeed show more triggering of Auto def fire.


Francisco Palomo wrote:
That said, one of the inherent flaws of the Tiller Napoleonic game engine is the emphasis on firepower and sheer numbers. Contemporary treatises uniformly emphasized that only shock action (e.g., “melee”) could lead to a successful assault. If an extended firefight developed, the attack was doomed to failure and could only be salvaged by the commitment of fresh troops that would be willing to close with the enemy. Most casualties in Napoleonic battles were caused by artillery, followed by casualties inflicted on troops that had broken and were running away. Given the limited range and accuracy of musket fire, casualties from infantry fire were seldom decisive.

My understanding is that musket fire was decisive at least in the aspect of stopping a charge. Isn't this what we usually read about the British and their musketry? They perfected the concept of firing at the right moment to cause maximum effect on the enemy to stop the enemy.

And Jena Auerstedt might also be a look worth, at Jena the Prussian line advanced but didn't melee. The firefight including artillery & especially French skirmishers ended with the Prussian battalions breaking one after another. But this is also a special case with the Prussians having a crap musket that was already designated to be replaced, no wonder they lost the firefight.



Francisco Palomo wrote:
Essentially, the engagements were decided by morale, Ie., an extended game of “chicken.” If the defenders did not panic, held their fire until the attackers were at point blank range (30 yards) and then stood their ground and/or counter-charged, the front ranks of the attacker would disorder and the attack would generally fail. By the same token, if the attackers advanced in good order and did not flinch when the defenders loosed their defensive fire, the defenders would crack and run away. That’s how a battalion of the Middle Guard routed an entire division of Prussians at Plancenoit. If the updates incorporate some type of morale check for attacking units that would be a significant improvement of the game engine,

Yes game of chicken describes it very well. Does not really belong here but TOAW has the function of RBC(Retreat before Combat), as that is an operational engine it is only likely to happen if a much stronger unit wants to attack a much weaker unit, if RBC is trigger the defender retreat and the attacker moves to the hex without combat.
But a concept of a Moral Tests before combat would be interesting as combat would really only happen if both succeeded.
Anyhow that the attackers can now disorder alone by advancing into the enemies "threat bubble" is a good improvement.

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