The original discussion in
https://wargame.ch/board/acwgc/viewtopi ... 6&start=26Just tell the conclusion first. Attached some related quotes. Then, other comments. Data in the bottom.(1) I got the recurrence of illegal fatigue recovery no matter checking Higher Fatigue Recovery Rates or not. It does. Units who moved, fired, or meleed (as attackers) in the last turn can still recover fatigue normally.Though, with Higher Fatigue Recovery Rates OFF, ineligible units recover less. Though units who meleed (as defenders), built breastworks, or were fired upon the last turn can't recover fatigue normally. But it still goes against the manual and makes the whole fatigue rules invalid and pointless. Yep, we still get a new civil game just without proper Fatigue. And I do like some small changes including showing original command ranking in square brackets, enhancing and making skirmishers less useless, and other bug fixes. I admired these efforts.
But fatigue rules make a difference. I will go back to 3.0 if I have the 3.0 version before it's fixed.
NOTE: I found the bug in Forgotten Campaign first, then tested it in Gettysburg 4.0. I suspected all 4.0 have the same bug but didn't install more 4.0 and test more.Suggestion for those who have the same bug in 4.0: Turn Higher Fatigue Recovery Rates OFF. Can't fix the bug but relieve it.
(2) Logrus is right. Recovery Rate in PDT is not a proportion of Max Fatigue, but just a flat value. The '%' confused me. But I insist on the other parts of the function.
In short, the recovery value of eligible units in one turn obeys uniform distribution. If the Recovery Rate in PDT is 5% (like my test), with Higher Fatigue Recovery Rates OFF, units will recover between 0 and 10, and with Higher Fatigue Recovery Rates ON, units will recover between 0 and 50 in low fatigue.
Attached quotes.Logrus reported he didn't find the bug in his game. Those who are interested in this issue may pay attention to fatigue in your 4.0 game. It would be good if we knew if this happened in others' games.
Logrus Pattern wrote:
I just did a test scenario in 4.0 Gettysburg and I am not replicating this. Fatigue is working normally for me with no perceptible increased rate of recovery.
Ashdoll Ren wrote:
Quaama wrote:
I had originally read this post as saying that there had been a turn after the movement to enable 'fatigue recovery' and that the unit had simply recovered all fatigue as good luck [Gettysburg Parameter Data would permit a 20% chance night fatigue recovery].
If I'm now reading this correctly you are saying that a unit moved at night during one turn [say Turn 52] and then at the beginning of the very next turn [Turn 53] their fatigue was zero! If so, that is a very significant failure of WDS v4 and in my view ensures that any game that has night turns is a farce.
1. Did you test a number of units and did they all recover fatigue the very next turn or was it only some [20%?]?
2. Does the same thing occur during day turns when (in Gettysburg v4) the fatigue recovery should be a lowly 5% chance?
Tested in a day turn of Gettysburg 4.0. If I am not wrong, units who moved, fired, or meleed (as attackers) last turn can still recover fatigue normally. (Though units who built breastworks or were fired upon the last turn can't recover fatigue.) I think it already makes the whole fatigue rules invalid and pointless in both day and night turns.
Here's the original text from the manual.
Manual wrote:
Recovering Fatigue
A unit may be eligible to recover Fatigue at the beginning of a player’s Movement
Phase provided it has not Moved, Fired, participated in Melee, or been Fired upon
with any effect from the time of the player’s previous Movement Phase.
For each such unit a random value from 0 to twice the applicable recovery rate,
determined by Parameter Data associated with the current battle, is subtracted from
the unit’s Fatigue value. See the Parameter Data Dialog in the General Help File for
the recovery rate values.
BTW, I think the '5%' and '20%' of 'Recovery' in the PDT is not the possibility of recovery, but a baseline value. I guess the recovery function may be like this.
The Reduced Fatigue = (Recover Rate) * (Random Factor) * (Additional Multiplier)
I guess the Recover Rate means 5% or 20% of Max Fatigue (900), in other words, 45 or 180 fatigue value. Not proportion but the flat value.
Random Factor is a random value between 0 and 2.
If checking Higher Fatigue Recovery (Optional Rules), there will be an Additional Multiplier. Low fatigue gets a '5x' bonus. Medium fatigue gets a '3x' bonus.
Other CommentsI suspect the program wrongly processes the turn. I notice rebs units who fire, move or melee in CSA turn can recover fatigue illegally in next CSA turn. But rebs units who are fired and meleed in USA turn can't recover fatigue in next CSA turn. Might the program think those rebs units don't move, fire, melee in USA turn (of course it's impossible) so allow them to recover fatigue in the next CSA turn wrongly?
Well, I am also a boardgame wargamer so I often compare the boardgame wargames with the computer wargames. As for fatigue, I have something to complain about.
I don't know why movement doesn't link to fatigue. An exception is Night Movement Fatigue (Optional Rules). But the feature is not enough.
Where's forced march? I saw the rules in many boardgames which allow units to move further in one turn but get fatigue, disordered, or loss (stragglers). We can't actually do what A.P. Hill did in Antietam in JTS/WDS. Use a critical forced march to turn the tide of battle. Meanwhile, the forced march degraded the troop.
The manual just explains '
Fatigue values represent the Combat Fatigue of the unit and are not intended to represent the simple physical fatigue of being winded'. That's not a reason for no forced march. But I understand the 'Combat Fatigue' though I think it should be called unit efficiency. If there are no fatigue rules or fatigue rules can't work like what happens in 4.00 now, there will be strange results. A combat unit can fight all day and take 30% or even 50% loss but has no real differences with a fresh unit. Like Paul's satire, our soldiers have become supermen. That's absurd. I think fatigue is to relieve the problem. Try to show the harm of cumulative loss to units' combat efficiency. That's why fatigue is calculated from loss. Based on loss instead of proportion brings a new problem. Some small units will be eliminated before suffering high fatigue. It's unfair but rare.
In a more general case, I don't think 100 loss of a 200 men and 100 loss of a 600 men combat unit should take the same fatigue (combat efficiency decline).Anyways, having fatigue rules is better than none. I really hope the bug can be fixed soon.---
Here's the data.The more data, the better. But it's enough to prove the conclusion. So that's all for now.
*
Game: Campaign Gettysburg ver4.00
*
PDT: Max Fatigue: 900 Day Recovery: 5%
*
Method:(1)12 rebs' units begin with 100 fatigue. 2 will fire. 2 will be fired. 2 will attack in a melee. 2 will defend in a melee. 2 will just move. 2 will build breastworks.
(2) Replay 3 times.
(3) Record fatigue and recovery.
(4) Then calculate the mean and variance of recovery value.
*
Table Header:Conditions: As above
before: Fatigue Value before
test1/2/3: new Fatigue Value (Recover Value)
*
(A) Higher Fatigue Recovery Rates OFF| | Conditions | before | test 1 | test 2 | test 3 |
| ---- | ----------- | ------- | -------- | --------- | --------- |
| 1 | Fire | 100 | 92(-8) | 93(-7) | 90(-10) |
| 2 | Fire | 100 | 89(-11) | 100(-0) | 95(-5) |
| 3 | Fired | 114 | 114 | 114 | 114 |
| 4 | Fired | 106 | 106 | 106 | 106 |
| 5 | Attack | 205 | 194(-11)| 195(-10)| 197(-8) |
| 6 | Attack | 164 | 156(-8) | 158(-6) | 159(-7) |
| 7 | Defend | 107 | 107 | 107 | 107 |
| 8 | Defend | 107 | 107 | 107 | 107 |
| 9 | Move | 100 | 92(-8) | 97(-3) | 98(-2) |
| 10 | Move | 100 | 96(-4) | 93(-7) | 97(-3) |
| 11 | Build | 100 | 100 | 100 | 100 |
| 12 | Build | 100 | 100 | 100 | 100 |
Recover Value(R1): 8, 7, 10, 11, 0, 5, 11, 10, 8 ,8, 6, 7, 8, 3, 2, 4, 7, 3
I don't know why there are double '11'. The max Recover Value should not be more than 10 in theory. (10 = 2 × 5)
Mean: 6.56
Variance: 9.47
In my function, R1~U(0,10) (Obey the uniform distribution). In theory, the mean is 5. Variance is 8.3. Value is between 0 and 10.
*
(B) Higher Fatigue Recovery Rates ON. Repeat.| | Conditions | before | test 1 | test 2 | test 3 |
| --- | ---------- | ------- | --------- | ---------- | ---------- |
| 1 | Fire | 100 | 85(-15) | 62(-38) | 73(-27) |
| 2 | Fire | 100 | 100(-0) | 100(-0) | 100(-0) |
| 3 | Fired | 103 | 103 | 103 | 103 |
| 4 | Fired | 103 | 103 | 103 | 103 |
| 5 | Attack | 383 | 372(-9) | 383(-0) | 358(-25) |
| 6 | Attack | 139 | 125(-14) | 107(-32) | 122(-17) |
| 7 | Defend | 106 | 106 | 106 | 106 |
| 8 | Defend | 103 | 103 | 103 | 103 |
| 9 | Move | 100 | 51(-49) | 62(-38) | 57(-43) |
| 10 | Move | 100 | 90(-10) | 85(-15) | 59(-41) |
| 11 | Build | 100 | 100 | 100 | 100 |
| 12 | Build | 100 | 100 | 100 | 100 |
Recover Value(R2): 15, 38, 27, 14, 32, 17, 49, 38, 43, 10, 15, 41
Remove the data from line2. It's abnormal. The unit seemingly was fired by opportunity fire, so couldn't recover. Remove the data from line 5. It has been in middle fatigue with '3x' instead of '5x' recovery bonus from Higher Fatigue Recovery Rates.
Mean: 28.25
Variance: 169.18
In my function, R2~U(0,50) (Obey the uniform distribution). In theory, the mean is 25. Variance is 208.3. Value is between 0 and 50.