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| Fair Fights & Balanced Games http://www.wargame.ch/board/acwgc/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=19383 |
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| Author: | Neal Hebert [ Sun Dec 15, 2013 3:46 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Fair Fights & Balanced Games |
Lee believed he would defeat the AotP, not that he would need the roads to retreat by. The results of the battle made them important once the battle was completed, had the CSA been victorious they perhaps turn south for Taneytown? Fight the fight and let the forces decide how and where the battle flows and who wins, not some arbitrary points on the map picked by the designer for whatever reasons tickled their fancy be it their strategic vision or simply directing the flow to follow historic actions. I already know who won the battle. |
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| Author: | nelmsm [ Sun Dec 15, 2013 4:12 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Fair Fights & Balanced Games |
Neal Hebert wrote: Lee believed he would defeat the AotP, not that he would need the roads to retreat by. The results of the battle made them important once the battle was completed, had the CSA been victorious they perhaps turn south for Taneytown? Fight the fight and let the forces decide how and where the battle flows and who wins, not some arbitrary points on the map picked by the designer for whatever reasons tickled their fancy be it their strategic vision or simply directing the flow to follow historic actions. I already know who won the battle. Then why would you call it the Battle of Gettysburg, it could just as well be called the Battle of Middle Earth. Unlike us who know how the fight turned out Lee did still have to pay attention to his lines of communication. |
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| Author: | KWhitehead [ Sun Dec 15, 2013 10:18 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Fair Fights & Balanced Games |
Lee's Army had a 57 mile long supply train attached to it just west of Cashtown. A single cavalry division could wipe it out. Without it Lee's army could not sustain itself for more than a couple of days. It could not supply itself with enough ammunition for rifles and artillery to fight more than one battle. We never see these boat anchors in our games but they are there and every army drags one around behind it. It is why Forest could stop Grant in his first advance on Vicksburg without ever engaging his army. Sherman cut lose from this limitation in his march to the sea but he could only do it because there was nothing but militia to prevent him from foraging. These are real tactical limitations to a General that we as players don't usually have to deal with except as a Victory Hex somewhere. Partially because of the 70 foot general problem. If the trains themselves were on the map we being all knowing would strike out at it ignoring the enemy army. Kill the trains, starve the enemy. |
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| Author: | John Ferry [ Sun Dec 15, 2013 10:37 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Fair Fights & Balanced Games |
Two things: We put objectives on the maps to serve the people who ask why so many Civil War battles took place in National Parks. One of the fun things about Overland, which those of us who own the game can tell you, is that I included the boat anchors! Also... What is the reference for the 57 mile long supply train? J John Ferry Overland Co-designer |
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| Author: | KWhitehead [ Mon Dec 16, 2013 10:55 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Fair Fights & Balanced Games |
J. Ferry wrote: Two things: We put objectives on the maps to serve the people who ask why so many Civil War battles took place in National Parks. One of the fun things about Overland, which those of us who own the game can tell you, is that I included the boat anchors! Also... What is the reference for the 57 mile long supply train? J John Ferry Overland Co-designer Very little is published on the size of the trains that followed the armies. The 57 mile comes from the retreat. A 17 mile train left for Cashtown by one route. A second, 40 mile long train, turn at Monterey for the retreat in order to use a different road. Logistics are boring so no one writes much about it. But logistics are what kept Pickett occupied for so long as well as two cavalry brigades. The Union supply bases were at Westminster and Frederick. The ANV at its forward supply base at Winchester, Va. Its main supply sources were still Richmond and Culpeper. The supply route lead north from Winchester through Hagerstown to Chambersburg. Meade's commissary train consisted of some 3500 to 4000 wagons at Westminster. Lee also had some 5000 cattle and another 5000 hogs and sheep at Fairfield with part of his army trains which explains the importance of holding the Fairfield road. The "Gettysburg Companion" goes on to list that small ordnance train would require 1750 wagons. The artillery would require 2650 wagons. subsistence wagons would be on the order of 1000. This would give the army an estimated 4500 wagons in the battlefield area. There would be a large number of wagons in route carrying supplies to the army. The 4500 wagons alone would create a single file train over 50 miles long. Most of these were in the Fairfield area 3 miles SW of Lee's right flank. |
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| Author: | dukemat [ Mon Dec 16, 2013 4:52 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Fair Fights & Balanced Games |
<salute> staggering............hard to believe that that was going on behind the front. |
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| Author: | Neal Hebert [ Mon Dec 16, 2013 6:49 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Fair Fights & Balanced Games |
Yes, an army fights on its stomach. Pickett was last arriving because of the trains, I believe waiting to be relieved by Imboden's cavalry. Of the trains, part of it would seem to be that of Johnson's Division which seriously delayed I Corps units getting to the front because they were behind it going through the pass. Something like 6 miles long? A great job of explaining logistics and their importance, however what forces were held back historically to guard them during the battle? No major units I can think of, so either Lee was foolish or decided that the battle would take care of the logistics problem. Win, there's no problem. Lose, withdraw with the trains exactly as was done. The "Battle of Middle Earth" sounds good! |
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| Author: | John Ferry [ Mon Dec 16, 2013 7:11 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Fair Fights & Balanced Games |
There is a saying in the army: Amateurs talk tactics; professionals talk logistics. Boring? I think not. J John Ferry LTC 2/20th Corps |
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| Author: | Neal Hebert [ Mon Dec 16, 2013 7:44 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Fair Fights & Balanced Games |
An article on Army of the Potomac logistics for the Battle of Gettysburg http://www.nps.gov/history/history/onli ... essay3.htm |
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| Author: | mihalik [ Tue Dec 17, 2013 12:18 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Fair Fights & Balanced Games |
Neal Hebert wrote: An article on Army of the Potomac logistics for the Battle of Gettysburg http://www.nps.gov/history/history/onli ... essay3.htm Thanks, General, That was quite a fascinating and informative article! |
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| Author: | nelmsm [ Tue Dec 17, 2013 6:27 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Fair Fights & Balanced Games |
I'm just awe struck thinking about how many damn horses and mules it took to pull that many wagons! |
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| Author: | Redlegger [ Tue Dec 17, 2013 7:42 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Fair Fights & Balanced Games |
Add on to the need that the horses/mules had to be fed and water is required for all. Officers rode along with supply and artillery, (as a "Redlegger" myself we would enjoy yelling at the infantry as we passed by; "[I]f you can't truck it . . . something that rhymes with truck it", er, though my mind can't recall exactly what did rhyme with that at the moment All the while the foot soldier slogs it out with everything he needs on his back truly earning the epithet "Grunt". Fascinating insight on thee most important aspect to modern war. (And even the Romans new the importance of good logistics) "Without supplies no army is brave." Frederick the Great |
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| Author: | KWhitehead [ Wed Dec 18, 2013 10:29 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Fair Fights & Balanced Games |
The "tail" being dragged behind an army is something we never take into consideration. It is one of the things I like about the AGEOD's ACW game. March off into enemy territory without building a logistics tail and your army will quickly die. Sometimes without firing a shot. It also is why Longstreet's idea of going around the Union left to place it between Meade and Washington is absurd. There is no way Lee could have maintained his supply line across South Mountain if he made such a move. The AoP would have ended up sitting on it assuming the AoP didn't easily side step the move using the better road system it controlled. Lee could draw on the local area while west of South Mountain but once he crossed he had to fight or retreat. It is also why all CW armies suffered but Southern ones in particular from a lack of a General Staff. The Commanding General had to spend much of his time trying to make sure his army didn't starve once it started moving. The AoP in this regard had a much better system than the ANV. |
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| Author: | mihalik [ Wed Dec 18, 2013 11:08 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Fair Fights & Balanced Games |
KWhitehead wrote: The Commanding General had to spend much of his time trying to make sure his army didn't starve once it started moving. The AoP in this regard had a much better system than the ANV. I think in the case of Southern armies at least, starvation was a major consideration whether the army moved or not. The absence of Longstreet at Chancellorsville, as well as lesser elements of the ANV, was directly attributable to the difficulty Lee had in keeping his army provisioned in the Fredricksburg area during the winter of 1862-1863. I also believe that that experience was a major factor in Lee's decision to invade the north in 1863, though you don't often hear it mentioned as such. |
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| Author: | sstiles [ Wed Dec 18, 2013 12:01 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Fair Fights & Balanced Games |
Fascinating discussion re logistics and the possible relationship to objective hexes. Thanks. I have found the Equal Force Fights referred to in the above post are quite good. Have had some testing games with these - recommend them. |
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