American Civil War Game Club (ACWGC)

Col.Bill,
Have the same problem in HPS Shiloh. In case I was fired upon from a union gunboat even though I couldn't see him, but during the reply a red line shot out from the river on my unit but didn't see the icon for the gunboat.

Respectfully,
Brig. Gen. Gery Bastiani
3rd Division, II Corp, Tarheel Division AotM

"If there is a shell or bullet over there destined for us, it will find us" - General James Longstreet

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by boilertech</i>
<br />Col.Bill,
Have the same problem in HPS Shiloh. In case I was fired upon from a union gunboat even though I couldn't see him, but during the reply a red line shot out from the river on my unit but didn't see the icon for the gunboat.

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I think there are some that can fire indirectly?

<b><font color="gold">Ernie Sands
General, Commanding, Army of Ohio

ACWGC Cabinet member
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Also,

You'll find that playing with the new weather feature will drastically cut down visibility. I've tried to create scns with both weather on and weather off. Some will not like the cut in MPs. Weather can sometimes really slow things down. Especially when moving through woods. Which I think is more historical.



Lt. Col. Richard Walker
I Corps
Army of the Mississippi
2nd Brigade, 3rd Division
"Defenders of Tennessee"

I like the raise the tree height idea. Have you looked at what effect even a small increase in tree height might have on limiting the LOS? Say changing the 50 to say 80? Also might raise the blocking height of Clear hexes and Men. After all formations didn't start firing the minute they could see the enemy's hats or skim cannonballs over their own troop's heads just because they had one foot of clearance.

LG. Kennon Whitehead
Chatham Grays
III Corps, AoM (CSA)

Here is another anomalie. There are situations where there is a line of sight from a higher elevation to a lower elevation hex, but the hex in front is not in LOS. If you put a unit in the hex that cannot be seen, it blocks the LOS to the unit that can be seen, and a unit on the higher elevation can then see neither.

Here is another anomalie. There is a hex in Devils Den where the cumulative modifiers are so great that a unit placed there cannot be affected by fire. My conclusion is not all modifiers should be cumulative.

Another thing about woods. They should certainly a smaller number of men allowed to occupy them than a clear terrain hex. I can't even imagine 20 guns trying to fire from 125 yds frontage in woods.

MG Mike Mihalik
1/III/AoMiss/CSA

<font color="beige"><b>I think it's more a matter of terrain movement costs rather than modifying the tree height. The visibility occurs because the summit hexes are 2 steps up (60 feet) from some of the surrounding hexes thus negating the 50 foot tree height.

The union used the top of big round top as a signal station early in the battle, which means there was LOS from the summit, the same LOS situation occurs on the summit of Culp's Hill.
Raising the tree height to over 60 feet will give no visibility from the summit even though this is the highest point on the battle field (not counting the mountains to the west) and would also blind Culp's Hill's view to the north east.

The issue is Big Roundtop was a steep sided wooded hill laced with large boulders....ground that infantry could slowly move through but pretty much impossible for an artillery piece.
Having the ability to "stack" rough and forest terrain in the same hex or creating a rough/forest terrain hex modifier would negate the movement of artillery and mounted cavalry to the summit while allowing infantry and dismounted cavalry.

I can't agree with the argument against LOS to a target on such high ground, trees do give some visual cover and the target modifiers, 40% for forest and 20% for elevation account for that. I've always thought that artillery and small arms need different cover modifiers, a wood fence gives some cover to small arms (10%), it should give none to artillery fire. It seems like melee and fire modifiers should be different for different types of cover too.....but that's another story.

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<center><font color="blue"><b>Maj.Gen. R.A.Weir</b></font id="blue">
<font color="yellow">THE CALVERT LINE</font id="yellow">

<b>First--III--AoA CSA</b></center>

Becareful comparing today's forests with those of 100-200 years ago.

Today we don't use wood in our daily lives nearly as much as they did back then, so our woods can have much more undergrowth than thiers did.

Also, if you are on National Park battlefields those woods aren't cleaned and pruned to what they were back then.

LOS in historical woods, imo, was much greater than today's.

BTW, weather may have less an impact on wooded terrain. The canopy itself would absorb the light rains, and the root systems of the trees would hold the soil together better. Perhaps, one would find drier ground in a rain storm than out in the fields. Afterall, armies did tend to seek out wooded areas to 'escape' the rains.

MajGen Al 'Ambushed' Amos
3rd "Amos' Ambushers" Bde, Cavalry Division, XX Corps, AoC
The Union Forever! Huzzah!

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Al Amos</i>
<br />Becareful comparing today's forests with those of 100-200 years ago.

Today we don't use wood in our daily lives nearly as much as they did back then, so our woods can have much more undergrowth than thiers did.

Also, if you are on National Park battlefields those woods aren't cleaned and pruned to what they were back then.

LOS in historical woods, imo, was much greater than today's.

BTW, weather may have less an impact on wooded terrain. The canopy itself would absorb the light rains, and the root systems of the trees would hold the soil together better. Perhaps, one would find drier ground in a rain storm than out in the fields. Afterall, armies did tend to seek out wooded areas to 'escape' the rains.

MajGen Al 'Ambushed' Amos
3rd "Amos' Ambushers" Bde, Cavalry Division, XX Corps, AoC
The Union Forever! Huzzah!

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Some very valid points in here. For instance, at the Battle of Olustee in 1864 in Florida there was no ground cover - just lots of pine trees. If you visit the field today their are giant palm bushes that are 4-5 feet high and some smaller trees so that visibility is much more limited than it was in 1864 when there was just dirt and pine tree trunks that would allow you much more visibility, even in the woods.

Some of the places in Virginia, however, such as the Wilderness you would have zero visibility even in 1864 except in fields. But I also agree that the ground in the woods would have been less spongy during a normal rain shower than the fields.

Regards,

Brig. Gen. Alan Lynn
2nd Div, II Corps, AoA
VMI Training Staff

God Bless <><

All these problems come in due to the simplifications required by the game engine. Yes a signal station could see just fine from the top of Big Round Top, an individual could probably find a space open enough to see. But he shouldn't be able to "see" clearly a regiment five miles away as one two hundred yards, but he can in the game. An individual on Round Top can find a place with LOS but its quite another for five hundred men in a line to have the same LOS. An artillery gun could be placed up there but could their support caissons and limbers? There is a reason artillery could not deploy unless there was covering terrain behind the position for these very large and explosive targets.

I think raising the height of some of the terrain types is a good way to simulate the disruptive affects trees, houses, etc. had on the ability to get a clear shot at a distant enemy. I wish there were a limit on LOS on level terrain to reflect the disruption of LOS due to roll of the terrain and vegatation. For example you shouldn't really have a clear LOS across more than three hexes unless you have an actual height advantage.

LG. Kennon Whitehead
Chatham Grays
III Corps, AoM (CSA)

Its been awhile since I've played with this series. Has the weather feature hit it yet? If so, then a terminal visablity can be set for any and all turns. Doesn't have to have any special reason other than you don't want to see for ever on a clear day.[:D]

MajGen Al 'Ambushed' Amos
3rd "Amos' Ambushers" Bde, Cavalry Division, XX Corps, AoC
The Union Forever! Huzzah!