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captured guns-question:
http://www.wargame.ch/board/acwgc/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=10838		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  tony best [ Tue May 15, 2007 12:53 am ]
Post subject:  captured guns-question:
To userp General Lajoies topic which has gone off topic

In my latest battle some Yank cavalry captured some LIMBERED Reb guns. The captured guns unlimbered and were usable by the Yanks. Before the rule change, the guns would have taken some casualties and retreated. This is a drastic change!!

My question is to History. Before the rule change long lines of Artillary usually trailed the advancing Yank or Reb infantry on the roads.There was no need to guard them as sneaky cavalry could only attack and cause a few casualties and it was risky. Now, it would appear that a large Cavalry raid could be devastating capturing vast amounts of guns and causing the infantry to turn and recapture them. Was this the intention? How is this going to affect game play as the guns will have to be really guarded. My sense is that this was indeed the intention but the effect on battles where one side has a preponderance of horse( Gettysburg) would seem to have a large effect on play balance.

Comments( please only only the actuall changes)[:I]

Colonel Tony Best
Army of Georgia
Author:  tony best [ Tue May 15, 2007 1:03 am ]
Post subject: 
To continue: The hex now contains the unlimbered captured guns( with F quality) and the mounted cav unit. Despite the unlimbered guns infnatry still cannot melee the mounted Cav unit. Thus, you cant just have a moderate size infantry unit march up and recapture the guns you have to bring enough fire power to blow him away. With a 125 man Cav unit this can take a while. The entire advancing column will come to a halt.

To allay this than I would assume that every Arty unit will need infantry protection. I suppose I will stack the guns up to use as small a rear guard as possible and the guns get to the front when they get there. One could also spread the guns out up and down the line. Anyways-this is a major game alteration!!

Colonel Tony Best
Army of Georgia
Author:  zinkyusa [ Tue May 15, 2007 6:24 am ]
Post subject: 
To piggy-back on to Tony's remarks, it seems to me that it is to easy to spike the guns as well. I have only found one documented case where captured guns were spiked(Champions Hill). It probably happened more often that that but it seems to have been fairly uncommon just the same. I do like being able to capture and recapture the guns as that was very common and well documented but I think it should be more difficult to spike the guns.

Now to speak to Tony's concern with cavalry raiding guns behind the lines; I think the new rules are more historical in that sense becuase they force us to detach regiments to guard the trains and corps/reserve artillery. I was reading just last night in Steve Spears Book on Gettysburg about action on the first day of the battle in which several brigades on both sides went into battle a regiment light due to detaching them to guard the reserve artillery.

Lt. Gen. Ed Blackburn
II/VI/AoS
Image
"Forward Bucktails"
Author:  tony best [ Tue May 15, 2007 8:52 am ]
Post subject: 
Ed
Thanks for that Historical information. I do think we tend to get a bit cavilier about rear guards although against a good Cavalryman I sure watch out!!

Colonel Tony Best
Army of Georgia
Author:  tciampa [ Thu May 17, 2007 3:01 am ]
Post subject: 
[quote]<i>Originally posted by zinkyusa</i>
<br />To piggy-back on to Tony's remarks, it seems to me that it is to easy to spike the guns as well. I have only found one documented case where captured guns were spiked(Champions Hill). It probably happened more often that that but it seems to have been fairly uncommon just the same...

<font color="red"><b>Spotsylvania</b>...guns were spiked there...re: Military Hertiage.
(Magazine), June 2006, "Upton's Assault on the Mule Show" by Joseph E. Lowry, Page 46, Middle Column center. After the assault on the trenches..."The Federals, in turn broke of twigs in the vents in an effort to prevent any further use of the guns, should they be retaken."

I, too, thought that spiking was uncommon at the time the rule was announched and then I just happened to open an old Military Heritage and was surprised to read the above. Don't know the historian Lowry but I would presume that the sources he cites for further reading are credible....then again maybe not.</font id="red">

Saw this thread and just thought I would share this passage I stumbled upon.

Thanks,


Colonel Tom Ciampa
Image
2nd Bgde,1st Cav
XIV Corps, AoC
Games: TS/BG: AN, BR, CH, GB, SH - HPS: AT, Cor, GB, SH, VK
Author:  zinkyusa [ Thu May 17, 2007 7:38 am ]
Post subject: 
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by tciampa</i>
<br />[quote]<i>Originally posted by zinkyusa</i>
<br />To piggy-back on to Tony's remarks, it seems to me that it is to easy to spike the guns as well. I have only found one documented case where captured guns were spiked(Champions Hill). It probably happened more often that that but it seems to have been fairly uncommon just the same...

<font color="red"><b>Spotsylvania</b>...guns were spiked there...re: Military Hertiage.
(Magazine), June 2006, "Upton's Assault on the Mule Show" by Joseph E. Lowry, Page 46, Middle Column center. After the assault on the trenches..."The Federals, in turn broke of twigs in the vents in an effort to prevent any further use of the guns, should they be retaken."

I, too, thought that spiking was uncommon at the time the rule was announched and then I just happened to open an old Military Heritage and was surprised to read the above. Don't know the historian Lowry but I would presume that the sources he cites for further reading are credible....then again maybe not.</font id="red">

Saw this thread and just thought I would share this passage I stumbled upon.

Thanks,


Colonel Tom Ciampa
Image
2nd Bgde,1st Cav
XIV Corps, AoC
Games: TS/BG: AN, BR, CH, GB, SH - HPS: AT, Cor, GB, SH, VK



<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">


Thanks for that Tom. No doubt there some other instances as well, but I think the main point is that is not a "common" occurance.

Lt. Gen. Ed Blackburn
II/VI/AoS
Image
"Forward Bucktails"
Author:  zinkyusa [ Thu May 17, 2007 7:46 am ]
Post subject: 
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by tciampa</i>
<br />[quote]<i>Originally posted by zinkyusa</i>
<br />To piggy-back on to Tony's remarks, it seems to me that it is to easy to spike the guns as well. I have only found one documented case where captured guns were spiked(Champions Hill). It probably happened more often that that but it seems to have been fairly uncommon just the same...

<font color="red"><b>Spotsylvania</b>...guns were spiked there...re: Military Hertiage.
(Magazine), June 2006, "Upton's Assault on the Mule Show" by Joseph E. Lowry, Page 46, Middle Column center. After the assault on the trenches..."The Federals, in turn broke of twigs in the vents in an effort to prevent any further use of the guns, should they be retaken."

I, too, thought that spiking was uncommon at the time the rule was announched and then I just happened to open an old Military Heritage and was surprised to read the above. Don't know the historian Lowry but I would presume that the sources he cites for further reading are credible....then again maybe not.</font id="red">

Saw this thread and just thought I would share this passage I stumbled upon.

Thanks,


Colonel Tom Ciampa
Image
2nd Bgde,1st Cav
XIV Corps, AoC
Games: TS/BG: AN, BR, CH, GB, SH - HPS: AT, Cor, GB, SH, VK



<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">


Thanks for that Tom. No doubt there some other instances as well, but I think the main point is that is not a "common" occurance.

Lt. Gen. Ed Blackburn
II/VI/AoS
Image
"Forward Bucktails"
Author:  KWhitehead [ Thu May 17, 2007 10:31 am ]
Post subject: 
You have to take all battlefield accounts with a grain of salt. If you believed them literally, all fights ended in hand to hand combat and were settled by the bayonet. Then you find hard facts like the AoP Surgeon's report that only four men were killed by bayonet wounds in the Wilderness and you wonder if some of these reports were from the same battles or war.

Unfortunately for judging the issue no one made a report after the battle on how many guns were found on the field spiked. As is, it is only guess work based on how many accounts mention it versus not mentioning it. To further cloud the issue most reports by participants tend to emphasize the brave and dangerous things. Hard to get excited by "he bravely walked over to the gun and stuck a stick in it."[:D]

LG. Kennon Whitehead
Chatham Grays
III Corps, AoM (CSA)
Author:  Al Amos [ Thu May 17, 2007 1:28 pm ]
Post subject: 
To add what Kennon said, reports also tend to report the unusual or odd occurence. The daily norm was skimmed over, as it was assumed the readers of such reports didn't need to be told the plain, boring stuff. "Private Jones picked up the equipment assigned to his gun, and carried it with him as the battery retired."

MajGen Al 'Ambushed' Amos
3rd "Amos' Ambushers" Bde, Cavalry Division, XX Corps, AoC
The Union Forever! Huzzah!
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