American Civil War Game Club (ACWGC)

ACWGC Forums

* ACWGC    * Dpt. of Records (DoR)    *Club Recruiting Office     ACWGC Memorial

* CSA HQ    * VMI   * Join CSA    

* Union HQ   * UMA   * Join Union    

CSA Armies:   ANV   AoT

Union Armies:   AotP    AotT

Link Express

Club Forums:     NWC    CCC     Home Pages:     NWC    CCC    ACWGC
It is currently Thu Mar 28, 2024 9:03 am

All times are UTC - 5 hours




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 9 posts ] 
Author Message
PostPosted: Sun Feb 06, 2022 5:01 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Mar 08, 2012 10:33 pm
Posts: 95
Ok, so I'm in a number of Civil War groups on Facebook, but most of them are simply filled with people who want to disparage the South on every post, rather than provide any informed/researched opinions or information on topics such as this one. So I thought I'd throw it out here (my apologies if it has been discussed in the past, I have been away from the forums for a number of years before I reactivated in the last year or two).

Many of the debates over "How would the South have fared at Gettysburg if Jackson had survived Chancellorsville" come from the standpoint of assuming that everything up through his being wounded that fateful evening happened, but then he survives having his arm amputated and is able to reassume command of his Corps in time to participate in the Gettysburg campaign.

So for a slight twist to that - suppose that the North Carolina pickets had not gotten spooked that evening in 1863 and had been able to identify Jackson's scouting party in time to avoid firing upon the riders...thereby resulting in Jackson NOT being wounded and losing his arm. In effect, assume that he had been in "relatively perfect health". Does this change anything regarding the Gettysburg campaign? The war in the east? Or does it simply play out in much the same way, just with Jackson in command of II Corps through the end of the war???

I am simply interested in honest discussion on the subject. I realize there are a number of hypothetical "what if" scenarios that could be played on similar to this - what if an errant shell had killed Grant in 1862 at Shiloh? What if Johnston hadn't been killed there? etc. But this seems to be the one that most people at least think (rightly or wrongly) would have impacted the war the most, so I'm just trying to satisfy my curiosity.

_________________
BG David McWaters
ANV
7/2/II Corps
18th Alabama Infantry
Sharpshooters
Image


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Sun Feb 06, 2022 5:59 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Oct 07, 2020 10:42 pm
Posts: 668
I suspect that if Jackson had been in command of his Corps at Gettysburg then it would have been more aggressive on Day 1. Unlike Ewell, Jackson would have been likely to press an attack on Cemetery Hill or Culp's Hill (even into the night). With the Confederates in command of either of those positions by the end of the first day it would have been a very different battle. There may not have been any battle because without command of those two positions the Union would probably have withdrawn as even on July 2 Meade was thinking of such a thing (https://ehistory.osu.edu/books/official-records/043/0072).

_________________
Paul Swanson
Lieutenant-General
First Division
First Corps
Army of Northern Virginia


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Sun Feb 06, 2022 7:59 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Apr 28, 2020 3:36 pm
Posts: 592
I agree with General Swanson. I feel there would have been a more aggressive attack by Jackson on the first day. To what end that would have been...it's hard to say. The Battle Of Gettysburg Podcast covered this in one of their episodes, their most famous one, I believe.

_________________
Colonel Jason "Skeedaddle" Campbell
The Mahoning 4th Brigade
3rd Division
2nd Corp

AoT
"Let's fill up our canteens, boys. Some of us will be in hell before nightfall and we'll need the water"


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Sun Feb 06, 2022 11:36 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue Nov 11, 2003 9:52 am
Posts: 1324
You have to also consider that with Jackson in command he might have already taken Harrisburg and be unable to make it back in time to participate in the first day's battle.

_________________
MG Mike Mihalik
Forrest's Cavalry Corps
AoWest/CSA


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Mon Feb 07, 2022 9:35 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Nov 06, 2017 4:55 pm
Posts: 576
Or, as in the Seven Days battle, taken a nap.

_________________
Walter A. Dortch
Commanding -/4/V AotP
UA Cabinet Secretary

UA Operations Officer
UA Wolverine Team Leader


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Tue Feb 08, 2022 11:03 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jul 19, 2021 4:14 pm
Posts: 75
LOL. I thought whoever knew the history would think of the 'what-if'. What if Jackson did not die? What if Jackson joined the battle of Gettysburg?

BTW, I am also concerning another 'what-if'. Stuart was completely out of contact with Lee and unable to alert his commander to Yankee movements for several critical days before the Battle of Gettysburg. What if Stuart kept in contact with Lee?

> Would Lee choose a better battlefield?
> Would rebs can break Buford faster with Stuart's help?
> Would Lee and his generals do better in Gettysburg? They didn't do well in Gettysburg. Was it because they have limited information about the terrain and Union? Would Stuart give rebs more information? CSA players, who know the history and know more information than generals in history, seemingly have more possibilities to win on the first day of Gettysburg.

Does the 'what-if' have the same or more influence than 'Jackson alive'?

Looking forward to a good comment. :) :?:

_________________
BG Ashdoll Ren
3rd Division
II Corps / Army of Northern Virginia


"Days and weeks of sheer boredom, interspersed with times of stark terror!"

Image


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Tue Feb 08, 2022 1:23 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun May 14, 2017 1:55 am
Posts: 935
Location: Tennessee
I enjoy a good "what if" discussion as well. But the reality is that each and every event creates a ripple effect which you often don't even account for when taking into account the thousands of variables in any replay of sequential events.

To begin with... if Jackson lives... is he still wounded? Are we assuming he survived the amputation? If so, is he healthy enough to take the field a month after losing an arm? If we are assuming he was never wounded, does the Battle of Chancellorsville still play out in identical fashion? Does Hooker still get concussed on Day Three of the battle? The answers to all of these directly affect the course of events which begin to lead towards Gettysburg 60 days later.

I don't think you can assume the series of events would play out identically and that Lee and Meade would end up at Gettysburg if Jackson had lived (wounded or healthy). Too many variables are in play. Assuming Jackson is never wounded, why would Lee reorganize his army into three corps? If Jackson is healthy does the ANV more aggressively follow-up the AotP after being reinforced by Longstreet with the rest of the First Corps? That might be a more likely outcome than the period of rest and refitting that historically occurred as Lee's army recovered from the shock of battle and loss of their spiritual "heart and soul" in Jackson.

Jackson was not one to rest after a victory and with two full divisions of reinforcements coming to Fredericksburg with Longstreet there was no reason to rest. You can assume Lee and Jackson would be looking to cross the Rapidan or Rappahannock and drive Hooker all the way back to DC the same as they had driven Pope after his defeat at Second Manassas.

Gotta love the "what ifs," no right or wrong answers. But all just fiction.

_________________
Gen. Blake Strickler
Confederate General-in-Chief
El Presidente 2010 - 2012

Image


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Wed Feb 09, 2022 9:24 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue May 22, 2001 10:10 pm
Posts: 1035
Location: USA
I recall reading Lee had been considering reducing the size of the corps and adding a third to the ANV before Jackson's wounding, he thought the Corps were too big to be controlled by a single commander and the small staffs the confederacy had at the time. So now you have two what if's should Jackson survive, ANV remains two corps or goes to 3 and if Jackson is alive does Hill or Ewell get the third corps. I recall a BGG scenario covering the first option but don't recall seeing anything like the second.

_________________
Gen. Ken Miller

Image

The McKeesport Union Guard

3/1/II
AotP


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Wed Feb 09, 2022 9:08 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue Nov 11, 2003 9:52 am
Posts: 1324
krmiller_usa wrote:
I recall reading Lee had been considering reducing the size of the corps and adding a third to the ANV before Jackson's wounding, he thought the Corps were too big to be controlled by a single commander and the small staffs the confederacy had at the time. So now you have two what if's should Jackson survive, ANV remains two corps or goes to 3 and if Jackson is alive does Hill or Ewell get the third corps. I recall a BGG scenario covering the first option but don't recall seeing anything like the second.


My guess is Ewell would have gotten that third corps due to seniority. That was a big deal in the Confederate army.

_________________
MG Mike Mihalik
Forrest's Cavalry Corps
AoWest/CSA


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 9 posts ] 

All times are UTC - 5 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 134 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group