American Civil War Game Club (ACWGC)

Gentlemen,

<Salute>

This thread exists to allow our members to debate the new set of ACWGC Rules. Please submit your thoughts and comments here. A reminder that if the rules are easily obtainable as a Word document by clicking here https://www.acwgc.net/rules

Thank you!

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Brigadier General TW Marshall

ACWGC President 2022 - 2024

Marshall's Brigade 'The St Andrews Greys', 2nd (Gator Alley) Division, Stewart's Corps, Army of Tennessee

As can be seen from the length of what follows I believe that there are quite a number of matters that need to be addressed. Where possible I have also made suggestions as to changes that should occur.

1.1.4 Why the inverted commas for some words? Commas around a word generally mean that you don’t mean it. If you mean something, then say it. Remove first sentence; it is superfluous. Remove the word "Rather" from the second sentence and insert "OBD" before the word "points". Change third sentence to read: "OBD points indicate a member’s standing within the Club and may be used in determining promotions within it."

2.1.3 &2.1.3.1 Such changes indicate to me that there has been a problem with one or two cadets. The whole thing seems restrictive and too focused on procedure rather than being a rule. I suggest the whole lot be replaced with:
"2.1.3 If a cadet fails to follow any Club Rules or demonstrate an inability or reluctance to accept same then the Academy Commandant may recommend to the GinC that the Cadet be dismissed. Following GinC approval, the Academy commandant shall ensure that all administrative changes are made to record that dismissal."
2.1.3.1 Too verbose, replace with "A Cadet who has been dismissed may not reapply to join the Club unless a minimum of one year has passed since their dismissal."
2.1.4 The last sentence is unnecessary. Cadets, in my experience (at least on the CSA side) generally have forum access and privileges from the day they begin training. They need access to the DoR at the beginning of training to register the game and forum access is normally provided at the same time.
2.1.5 As a distinction is, correctly, made later in the Rules it is probably better to say "Field Lieutenant or 1st Lieutenant" rather than just "Lieutenant".
2.2.1.1.2.1 Add “unless there are exceptional circumstances’ to the last sentence. [There’s always the unexpected and some leeway must be allowed for it.]
2.2.1.1.5 Should refer to proposed Rule 2.3.4 not 2.3.5.
2.4.1 Insert the words “one or more of” before the words “the officers”.

3.1.3 The word “indoctrination” comes with some unacceptable connotations in today's world. I suggest it be removed as superfluous or replaced with "pedagogy" if another word is desired.
3.1.3.1 The phrase “Upon request by the instructor” in the third last dot point seems superfluous and is best removed. [Why should the Commandant need to wait for the instructor to request such a thing when he knows it is required?]

FOUR: CLUB GOVERNANCE Wow, a big mess; lots of problems. The whole thing should be rewritten in a clearer, more succinct manner that addresses the pertinent issues. For example:
4.1.1.1 What about CoAs, now GinCs?;
When may people nominate for elected positions?;
Why 4.3.1.1 & 4.3.1.2?;
The whole veto thing is messy (as it was before);
Are CoAs now appointments for life?;
Why up to “90 days” to hold an election [possible conflict with proposed 4.3.1.1 & 4.3.1.2]; and
Why all the rules about Recruitment Officer? [That position has no governance responsibilities so it shouldn’t be mentioned in this section. I see no reason why the President should have special powers here, surely recruitment is in the interests of the entire Cabinet. I suggest this entire section be replaced with something like “The Cabinet may appoint other officers to assist them in Club governance. Any officer appointed shall report their actions in a manner that the Cabinet deems best. Any officer appointed to such positions may also be granted additional OBD points by the Cabinet in recognition of their contribution to Club governance.]

5.1.1.3 A scan through the OBD records shows that there are many instances where Union members have received Union-only awards that exceed 20 OBD points. Such instances exceed their published OBD award points and the 20 OBD limit. Some examples from 2021/22 (names removed) include: Honorable Service Medal 30.000; Combat Badge JAN 21 25.000; Exemplary Svc Medal 60.000; Kearney Cross of Valor 70.000; and Outstanding Service Medal 80.000.

6.1.1.1 Suggest “or as scouts in front of enemy lines” be added.
6.1.1.3 Problematic, as it was before, due to the word "substantial" lacking definition. Suggest the first sentence be changed to: “Players who withdraw any of their forces from the battlefield map, other than via a designated Exit Hex or as specified in the scenario as a victory condition, shall suffer whichever is the greater of a two-step reduction in the level of victory or the total VP value of the units withdrawn.
6.2.3 A good effort in regard to a problematic area. I still feel it requires further work but I’m unsure at the moment on how to fix it. For example, if a player does not “establish mutually agreed expectations regarding the return of moves [before a game begins]” they will have breached Club Rules? What about tournaments where opponents are usually determined before any agreement on the return of moves can be made and such an agreement may not be possible?
6.4.2 What does this mean? Where is its “own section in the rules”?
6.5 There are many other things that could lead to a member having a grievance, such grievances should not be solely reserved for breaches of the proposed Rule 6.1. Suggest change “Section 6.1” to “any Club rule”.
6.6 This section conflicts with ACWGC Cabinet Protocol No. 2 - Cheating. If this section is adopted within our Rules then Cabinet Protocol No. 2 will need to be amended or certain sections within it will become null and void at least to the extent that they conflict with this proposed Section 6.6.

SEVEN ACWGC MEDALS A big improvement on the current section.
7.1.1 Conflicts with current Union practice as mentioned in 5.1.1.3 above.
7.1.2.2 Typo: “[NAME]” should be “LOM”.

I hope the above helps in arriving at a better set of Rules.

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Paul Swanson
Lieutenant-General
First Division
First Corps
Army of Northern Virginia

Obviously, Paul brings up many points.

If one reads the current rules, they have an equally large number of points of discussion and debate. Goodness knows I have been part of debating them since 2010.

In the end, its a Club. We aren't lawyers nor do any of us have any more, or less, experience than DW Mallory did when he wrote the current rules back in the early 2000s. If some parts aren't clear enough, or worded just right, my un-lawyerlike view is that the point still gets across. Not going to sweat it.

Substantially, these new rules fix many of the recurring problems we had with the old rules. Chiefly, with promotions, OBD points, and elections. Promotions will now be much easier for the GinC's to deal with and will remove it from the Cabinet duties list. The GinC will alert the Cabinet of promotions made in accordance with the Club Rules. OBD points are addressed for reasons far too monotonous to get into here. But they needed to be standardized and clarified as the two sides were inadvertently not on the same page (and didn't even know it - again, long story I won't get into). Lastly, we just went through about a half-dozen uncontested elections. We also have/had all five Cabinet positions up for reelection within a six-month period. That's not an easy thing on anyone to go through from the Cabinet side. We end up spending consecutive months just waving goodbye and hello to people. Spacing out the elections and avoiding the peak periods of membership ambivalence (November/December) will hopefully make it easier on the Cabinet while also making it easier on the Membership to volunteer and/or participate in the process. Running multiple elections at a time serves no good purpose.

Your comment about Union OBD points was addressed with Jim Boling previously. I do not wish to speak for him, but I do know the Federal side reverted back to the 20 OBD point limit for medals after they became aware of the conflict with the Club Rule. Any previously rewarded points were reduced (though some may have fallen through the cracks as the DOR isn't an easy place to navigate for many of us). If you have a specific list I'd encourage you to send it to Tom Marshall and Jim Boling.

Overall, I think the proposed rules work well. About 95% of them are copied from the old rules. The other 5% were altered to address some of the issues we have had time and time again over the years. These could have been remedied individually but once we had more than a half-dozen of them on our plate, we thought we should just see if we could do it all at once by updating the Club Rules as a whole.

They will never be perfect or make everyone happy. If it was up to me alone, they'd be different in some places. But it's all about compromise and working with others in the Club/Cabinet to find some common ground on topics.

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Gen. Blake Strickler
Confederate General-in-Chief
El Presidente 2010 - 2012

I can't see too many differences but then I don't study these things much. But I am sold on the positives of the proposed changes and they seem to be for the betterment of the Club.

I am good.

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Maj. Gen. Mitch Johnson
ARMY OF THE TENNESSEE COMMANDER

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Paul Swanson
Lieutenant-General
First Division
First Corps
Army of Northern Virginia

General Swanson,

Thank you very much for taking the time to get into the specifics of the above - your attention to detail here is much appreciated & please be assured the Cabinet and I will review any suggested changes carefully. I am grateful to have the benefit of your expertise in this area.

I will say though, that in my opinion, and that of the Cabinet, these changes do represent a substantial improvement, while retaining the vast majority of the existing rules, which by and large have worked so well for so long. It is a compromise agreement - and that's a good thing. Nobody in Cabinet got everything they wanted here, but like Blake said, it is all about finding consensus & common ground & the Cabinet has done that here, in my opinion.

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Brigadier General TW Marshall

ACWGC President 2022 - 2024

Marshall's Brigade 'The St Andrews Greys', 2nd (Gator Alley) Division, Stewart's Corps, Army of Tennessee

After reading the proposal, I find no reason not to approve it when it comes up for a vote.

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Gen Lynn Newell
UA COS

Quoting from the other thread:


I think the voting requirements for GinC should be reconsidered. I tipped of the change that lowered the requirement to MG, but already back then I made clear that I think there is the need for having had an administrative position to understand what the job takes and so understand what person we need as GiC. All the BGs with high OBD points stopped their "career" and have no clue of the administrative apparatus, just like all lower ranks. Either keep the requirment to MG & above or right away let every member of a faction vote the GiC.

Now the game supported by the club, not sure how this will be pulled up but back in my time on the cabinet there were already thoughts about adding board games, and now we close out all other computer games except those of WDS. Not sure what the purpose of this really is as everything is in place and now a game from WDS is mandatory to join.
I had just recently an oldtimer returning to the NWC and he only had the old Battleground games, I saw no reasons to prohibit him from joining, I recommended that he takes a look at the new game series but that was all. I always thought we should expand our portfolio and not shrink it, even if that means taking games into the club that play a rather minor role. All of these games are entry points that ultimately may lead to the member entering the WDS series, we should take them out.

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Lieutenant General Christian Hecht
Commander I Corps, Army of the Potomac

"Where to stop? I don't know. At Hell, I expect."

General Hecht,

Thank you very much for your input. As you will well know from your own time in the Cabinet, much of what we do is the balancing of competing priorities.

It's an entirely fair point to say that only officers of the rank of Major-General & above should be eligible to stand/run for election because only then can they be sure to have some experience of what the task involves.

Now, this is entirely subjective, but as far as the voting goes, my view would be that it's more important to open the door to as many enthusiastic potential voters as possible. Ultimately, this is a hobby club - if someone has the enthusiasm to learn, the administrative skills can easily be taught. Both the Army of Northern Virginia & the Army of Tennessee are led by colonels, while the Army of the Tennessee is led by a BG. I happen to know all those officers, and their character, passion, and positivity would make them all excellent candidates for any and all leadership roles in the ACWGC. CoA/GiC is a big responsibility, which is why the Cabinet backed MG as a minimum rank for any candidates for office, but if anything, I would certainly be prepared to consider lowering the voting criteria below BG.

As far as the WDS issue goes - again, in principle, I agree that if it's a good ACW tactical or strategic wargame, then it should ideally be enjoyed here. However, the stats don't lie - if 99% of the games here are WDS, then that's simply the reality of what most people here are currently interested in playing. On balance, I believe that downloading a free demo is not a particularly high bar to entry, especially given PBEM requires a high level of commitment and reliability in any event. I entirely accept this is a subjective judgement, but you have to draw a line somewhere & it serves nobody for people to be in the ACWGC without the ability to play against the vast majority of our members.

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Brigadier General TW Marshall

ACWGC President 2022 - 2024

Marshall's Brigade 'The St Andrews Greys', 2nd (Gator Alley) Division, Stewart's Corps, Army of Tennessee

Well done.

I have some minor NIT-PICKS: I agree with Gen Hecht about the lowering CinC requirements to BG and his reasoning.

Otherwise, well done.

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General Ernie Sands
President ACWGC -Sept 2015- Dec 2020
7th Brigade, 1st Division, XVI Corps, AoT
ACWGC Records Site Admin

"If you do not know where you are going, any road will take you there."

I just not sure how a member is "lured" into administrative contribution by allowing him to vote. If that would work we should really allow this for all, but I can't see how it works as the people vote on a matter that they don't understand because they have never done a job in that direction in the club.

That lower ranks are taking higher position is fine with me, I just have assigned a Sous-Lieutenant(lowest French rank) to be the new Grand Armee Chief Engineer over at the NWC. I think it proves that it is just a matter of character, abilities and time that a person contributes on a administrative position. He just needs the will, abilities & time to contribute and most will do so, allowing to vote won't help here.


Well if the free demo is enough to be able to join I don't mind about this requirement. It would be different if the interested person would be forced to buy a game, but with the free demo all seems fine.

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Lieutenant General Christian Hecht
Commander I Corps, Army of the Potomac

"Where to stop? I don't know. At Hell, I expect."

General Sands,

Thank you very much - the kind words are especially appreciated given your long-standing & distinguished record of service to the ACWGC.

I will reply fully to General Hecht below, but feedback from you both has caused the Cabinet to look again at this & we will confirm our position in good time, prior to the vote.

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Brigadier General TW Marshall

ACWGC President 2022 - 2024

Marshall's Brigade 'The St Andrews Greys', 2nd (Gator Alley) Division, Stewart's Corps, Army of Tennessee

General Hecht,

Thank you again for the points raised here. Your feedback, and that of General Sands, has caused the Cabinet to look again at the issue of who should be eligible to vote in CoA/GiC elections. We will confirm our position in good time prior to the vote on these updated rules, so watch this space. Thank you for taking the time to make your views known - it is much appreciated.

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Brigadier General TW Marshall

ACWGC President 2022 - 2024

Marshall's Brigade 'The St Andrews Greys', 2nd (Gator Alley) Division, Stewart's Corps, Army of Tennessee

While English was never my fine subject and understanding seems to be vague to me I would agree that Cabinet nominations be spread out to have a more consistent flow for the club.
The rank of GiC should remain a higher rank, just so there is a better understanding of the rules.
Hope this makes sense.

Colonel David Smith
Commander of the 2nd Division II Corps AoP.

Can't add fancy pictures - I have no clue how to do it.

Colonel Smith,

Thank you very much for your input - much appreciated. I'm glad you agree with spacing out the elections - I think that modest change will be of great benefit.

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Brigadier General TW Marshall

ACWGC President 2022 - 2024

Marshall's Brigade 'The St Andrews Greys', 2nd (Gator Alley) Division, Stewart's Corps, Army of Tennessee