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PostPosted: Sun Sep 17, 2023 8:03 am 
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To new videos on our YouTube Channel to check out if you are interested.

A 2-minute promo video talking about what the series is about is located here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xMDK8ctYhTY

A "normal" episode has also been added. This episode features a segment I call "Just My Opinion" on the Battle of Shiloh game. Be sure to check it out! I am sure a few people will vehemently disagree with my opinion, but that's okay, I am still right :mrgreen:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hLeygMshY1A

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 17, 2023 9:19 am 
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As noted on the YouTube comments, this was in 'My Opinion' the best episode so far.......it was brilliant. Only those who have read your "two cents worth" from your AAR's will truly appreciate your opinion and indeed how you arrived at it. Once again, only those who have been involved in one of your MP's or otherwise delved into the murky depths of how you arrive at the ratings you assigned both the AotT and the AotM will understand..........just 'my opinion' mind you :lol:

Greatly enjoyed and 14 minutes was tooooooo short.

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 17, 2023 4:09 pm 
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Rhetorical Questions Answered!?

"I don't understand it [the ratings]?"

I think a clue can be found in the designer's notes. The research that was done appears to be sound in terms of the primary sources that were consulted so it would be fair to assume that the designer was aware of many of the historical facts (e.g. prior unit battle experience or lack thereof) pointed out in the video. It would seem that such things were taken into account when designing the final product which had the aim "that both sides MUST have the possibility for victory", so "nearly every scenario has been thoroughly tested and tweaked to ensure a reasonable balance" with that aim in mind. In the designer's opinion:
"If one side has zero chance to win, then the game is flawed. However, some scenarios will certainly require a very skilled player for victory [or conversely be up against a poor opponent]."

Given the above, the result is that rather than "ratings [solely] being based upon the reputation/history of the unit going into battle" there was consideration given to "how they performed in that battle".

One example used was 25th Missouri and rated as 'B' in Shiloh. I suspect the answer lies with their commander Peabody (wounded four times during the battle, the last being fatal). The actions of Peabody and his regiment are well described in this short article (https://emergingcivilwar.com/2019/04/05/the-25th-missouri-infantry-at-shiloh/). As this other article (https://web.archive.org/web/20120222215810/http://thismightyscourge.com/2009/03/25/colonel-everett-peabody-unsung-hero-of-shiloh/) comments:
"While scorned by his division commander, Peabody’s unauthorized recognizance-in-force saved the day, allowing Prentiss, and to a certain degree, Sherman, to throw together a defensive line."

Therefore, the ratings do not solely reflect the reputation of units going into a historical battle but also consider their actions during it. I am satisfied that the original designers were duly diligent in their historical research and applied it as best as they were able given the parameters of the game engine.
That is why I am strongly of the belief that any changes made to games, especially in regard to 'mechanics' must have due regard to the historical situation and the game engine. The introduction of any changes without suitable regard to historical reality and how it operates in the games can fatally flaw the various scenarios as they were originally designed, affecting likely outcomes and victory levels.

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 17, 2023 6:09 pm 
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:mrgreen: I knew Paul couldn't resist.

Which is more important - getting the ratings right from a gameplay perspective or from a historical perspective?

That, my friend, is the biggest question for us all to answer. It is the pivotal question in many ways.

And no matter which way you answer - you are neither right or wrong. I daresay many people will answer it very differently.


How do I answer?

In alternate (non-historical) scenarios I want the ratings to be artificially altered to create a scenario as fair and fun as possible. But in historically-based scenarios, I want the actual history to shine through so I can re-fight the historical battle as closely as possible. I don't want an army of fake Supermen just so I can feel better about my chances in a certain battle. I want a real army based on real ratings that I can take into a real battle. If it means I have a harder time winning, so be it. The greater the difficulty, the more the glory in surmounting it (can't recall who said that off the top of my head).

The Army of the Ohio is inferior to the Army of the Mississippi.

The Army of the Mississippi is inferior to the Army of the Tennessee.

The Army of the Tennessee should be the highest rated.

But it doesn't play out like that in the Historical Shiloh scenario. To me, that's disappointing.


Also, I am not arguing that WDS doesn't know their history. They surely do. I think they do ratings to make the gameplay more interesting in the end. But they walk a very fine line doing that. We could go off on a whole different discussion with this. But ask any Yankee what they think about Lee's ANV being rated all A's in 1864 and 1865. Once you start boosting a side's ratings up it is hard to know when to stop, and how much is too much.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 17, 2023 7:56 pm 
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The 'real' ratings must try to take account of what actually happened during the battle and not solely rely upon a unit's, or a leader's, previous reputation. The reasons why are too variable to list but a couple are illness or the leader simply 'having a bad day'. One example may be Lee at Gettysburg; believed to be suffering from a heart condition at the time and also didn't really seem to be operating at his usual high ability. I always thought that he was not 'at his best' due the absence of Stuart and was therefore tentative in his general approach.

In terms of Shiloh, there is an example of illness probably playing a significant part in the performance of the Union overall, see here (https://www.facebook.com/ShilohNMP/posts/disease-in-the-civil-war-dysenteryduring-the-american-civil-war-110100-union-sol/1855894694500508/). One paragraph in that link explains it succinctly:
"Many of the Union soldiers at Shiloh experienced dysentery after being transported by steamboat on the Tennessee River. Since there were over 100 boats transporting troops and supplies and the occupants were using the river as both their toilet and source of drinking water, many quickly became ill. Some began to recover as they camped around Shiloh Church and found cleaner sources of water. The disease continued to have a debilitating effect on the performance of Union soldiers during the battle. Col. Jesse Hildebrand, commanding a brigade in Gen. W.T. Sherman’s Division, was still sick on April 6, 1862, and was barely able to report for duty. Other officers including Col. James S. Reardon of the 29th Illinois, were sick and unable to serve in the battle."
I have seen other references to the 'Tennessee Trot' in regard to the Union at Shiloh. It's bad enough dealing with such an illness in the 21st century with modern medicines; I certainly would not want to experience such illness in the conditions of the 19th century and during a ferocious battle.

Also, a number of Union leaders simply seemed to be 'having a bad day'. As mentioned in the links relating to Peabody and 25th Missouri earlier, the Union leadership didn't want to believe that the "Army of Mississippi could be lurking nearby". Consequently, the actions of 25th Missouri see them getting a relatively high rating while most of the Union gets a relatively low one due to a combination of illness and 'bad days'.

So, yes, the historical reality must be paramount. That reality cannot rely solely on reputation prior to the battle but must include performance on the day (which reflects other generally unknown conditions that were present). Any good simulation should also take into account the unrealities of hindsight that occur when playing the game. The Union, in the game, knows the Confederate army is there (and indeed knows exactly where they are positioned). The Union also knows exactly when their reinforcements will arrive on the battlefield. Historically, the Union certainly was not aware of what was before them and were largely caught by surprise. They knew reinforcements were on the way but not exactly when they would arrive, and did not know that when they arrived they would arrive as 'walking wounded' suffering from illness.
I would say that the ratings applied in the historical Shiloh scenario are there to help simulate the 'surprise' element, the lower quality of Union forces due to illness, and the below-par performance of a number of their leaders. This helps create a scenario that is better balanced towards the historical situation to enable a "reasonable balance" and permit both sides a "possibility for victory" which is certainly true of the original battle. [The VP victory levels also play their part in determining the win or loss by either side in the game.]

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 17, 2023 8:47 pm 
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Quaama wrote:
I would say that the ratings applied in the historical Shiloh scenario are there to help simulate the 'surprise' element, the lower quality of Union forces due to illness, and the below-par performance of a number of their leaders.


What a bunch of malarkey.

You are suggesting we are rated lower because our army had the "runs?"

What army didn't have them during the Civil War?

The rebel army spent two sleepless night camping out in the open under storming skies, without adequate food or supplies, and yet you argue the designers historically are taking that into account? Thank god they didn't get a good night's rest or maybe they'd all be rated A! Poor argument.

Just admit you are trying hard to root for your side to have better ratings.

At least Blake is being fair. We Federals often get shortchanged despite having far better equipment, medicine, and supplies. Trying to argue we have lower ratings because of "bad water" is stupid.

What the hell water were the rebels drinking that we weren't??? You guys got Perrier Water over there?

The Army of the Tennessee never lost a battle and whipped every rebel force sent against it. For us to ever be rated lower in any battle is a joke.

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 17, 2023 11:35 pm 
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M. Johnson wrote:
Quaama wrote:
I would say that the ratings applied in the historical Shiloh scenario are there to help simulate the 'surprise' element, the lower quality of Union forces due to illness, and the below-par performance of a number of their leaders.


What a bunch of malarkey.

You are suggesting we are rated lower because our army had the "runs?"

What army didn't have them during the Civil War?

The rebel army spent two sleepless night camping out in the open under storming skies, without adequate food or supplies, and yet you argue the designers historically are taking that into account? Thank god they didn't get a good night's rest or maybe they'd all be rated A! Poor argument.

Just admit you are trying hard to root for your side to have better ratings.

At least Blake is being fair. We Federals often get shortchanged despite having far better equipment, medicine, and supplies. Trying to argue we have lower ratings because of "bad water" is stupid.

What the hell water were the rebels drinking that we weren't??? You guys got Perrier Water over there?

The Army of the Tennessee never lost a battle and whipped every rebel force sent against it. For us to ever be rated lower in any battle is a joke.


No. I say it is a number of factors combined.
Illness was one. Sufficiently bad enough to be commented upon in several accounts that I saw.
Several Union leaders having a 'bad day'.
The surprise at finding an entire Confederate army there. It was known that Confederates were in the general vicinity, but the numbers and positions were unknown.

As I said before:
"I would say that the ratings applied in the historical Shiloh scenario are there to help simulate the 'surprise' element, the lower quality of Union forces due to illness, and the below-par performance of a number of their leaders. This helps create a scenario that is better balanced towards the historical situation to enable a "reasonable balance" and permit both sides a "possibility for victory" which is certainly true of the original battle. [The VP victory levels also play their part in determining the win or loss by either side in the game.]"

It's the combination of things and the desire to replicate it in a game that led to the ratings given for units and leaders. For example, in Campaign Gettysburg Lee is given the ratings: Command B; Leadership A. In other titles he is mostly given the ratings: Command A; Leadership A. The Gettysburg Campaign was not Lee's finest hour for a number of reasons. Following on from Gettysburg, Lee redeemed himself during the Mine Run Campaign [where I think Lee was at his best] and Campaign Overland gives Lee the two 'A' ratings for Mine Run.

In a game you can't generally avoid things like hindsight and the 'eye in the sky' but you can introduce design elements to help overcome them and present a scenario that is balanced to arrive at the historical result (all other things being equal). I note that in the DoR the Union has emerged with victory at historical Shiloh more often than the Confederacy. A close-run thing but that's probably as it should be. That tells me the designer probably got things pretty right. That is why it can be problematic, at later dates to introduce changes to the game engine without suitable regard to historical reality and how it operates in the games. To do so can fatally flaw the various scenarios as they were originally designed, affecting likely outcomes and victory levels.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 18, 2023 9:00 am 
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You were just making excuses for the supposed rebel 'superiority' at Shiloh. You seem to be coming around to the realization that designers are artificially boosting your qualities to give you a better opportunity to win.

Like athletes who take steroids any wins you have are then suspect.

I think we can agree the Army of the Tennessee gets a raw deal at Shiloh. They fought and won the battle on day one. Grant won that battle even if Buell hadn't arrived on day two. Buell's arrival helped but the outcome was already decided by nightfall on April 6. The Army of the Tennessee deserves better than to be rated beneath the other armies. If that makes it harder for the rebels to win then so be it.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 18, 2023 2:41 pm 
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"In alternate (non-historical) scenarios I want the ratings to be artificially altered to create a scenario as fair and fun as possible. But in historically-based scenarios, I want the actual history to shine through so I can re-fight the historical battle as closely as possible. I don't want an army of fake Supermen just so I can feel better about my chances in a certain battle. I want a real army based on real ratings that I can take into a real battle. If it means I have a harder time winning, so be it. The greater the difficulty, the more the glory in surmounting it (can't recall who said that off the top of my head)."

For my money, Blakes comment above hits the nail on the head and particularly the Red highlight. I shall desist from commenting further, as after all the discussion, commentary etc. etc. the sides will be as far separated as they are at this moment.

On an entirely different note, I wish to welcome the Army of the Tennessee Commander to the field. I have no doubt but that his men will be much inspired by his stout defense of the Army, to wit:
"The Army of the Tennessee deserves better than to be rated beneath the other armies. If that makes it harder for the rebels to win then so be it."

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 18, 2023 2:55 pm 
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You don't seem to understand that the scenario is designed with the aim, as I pointed out earlier, "that both sides MUST have the possibility for victory", so "nearly every scenario has been thoroughly tested and tweaked to ensure a reasonable balance" with that aim in mind. In the designer's opinion:
"If one side has zero chance to win, then the game is flawed. However, some scenarios will certainly require a very skilled player for victory [or conversely be up against a poor opponent]."

The historical Shiloh scenario is already a very difficult one for the CSA to win. In fact, if there opposing players of equal ability the CSA should never win the battle.
You have a situation where the CSA starts with 39,143 men which increases to 39,874 men and is the attacker. All the Objective hexes are in possession of the USA.
The USA is in good defensive terrain and starts with 37,663 which increases to 67,619 men.
So, from the start the USA has parity in raw numbers and has the additional benefits of defending in good terrain. If the design of the scenario is changed so that the USA has higher unit ratings a very difficult task for the CSA becomes impossible.

If the unit ratings are changed how can the scenario represent the 'surprise' and the general unpreparedness of the Union let alone cancel out the unavoidable and unrealistic benefit of hindsight and the 'eye in the sky'. The designer chose to do this through unit ratings and the balancing of VP victory levels (although it still remains a very difficult task for the CSA [probably as it should be]). Another alternative could have been to move the Objective hexes to the CSA side, changing the VP victory levels and making the USA the attacker [but then you don't have Shiloh, you have something else].
On the other hand, if the unit ratings are changed so that USA has a higher rating than the CSA then the game is over before it starts. The Union is well prepared and knows the numbers and locations of the entire CSA force. They simply maintain their defense in good terrain while their numbers increase until they have about a 2:1 advantage. The CSA has "zero chance to win". The scenario is unplayable, "the game is flawed".

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 18, 2023 6:33 pm 
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This is a great topic and gets to the formidable challenges of game and scenario design. I recall heated debates about whether a game was a true simulation or not based on whether various tweaks have been employed to make it "balanced." Oversimplifying, it is like the toggle switch that can be used to make an AI smarter or dumber which essentially has no historical basis. I tend to land with the folks who favor creating a simulation (and game engine) to the extent it reflects historical unit and leader quality, performance (experience) and condition at the start of a battle. These same things could/should be modified in a Game Title based on performance at a particular battle for scenarios that occur after that battle and the WDS games reflect this to an extent (but inconsistently) between Titles in the Series (see Blakes review of the Overland Title in his Chair and a Game Video’s, Episode 1 )
It can be argued that some of the Optional Rules are balancing rules and I point to the Quality Modifiers as examples of those as compared to other Optional Rules like the Alternate Unit Release Rule which is side neutral. They add (compound actually) to the “stock game” higher average quality of CSA v. UA units which already make CSA units stand longer, rally from rout more often, etc.

Another way to balance games which is used in the WDS games is through “what if” scenario’s which expressly acknowledge (or should in the scenario descriptions which are generally woefully lacking) what is being adjusted and for what purposes.

Yet another way is to “fix units” to balance a battle like Antietam which would/should always end in a major defeat for the CSA if the UA had had a Sherman or Grant in command that day. I can’t recall if there is an Antietam What If scenario that unlocks all the on-board UA units but who would play it if there was? What CSA fan boy would argue their superior quality troops could carry that day?

So back to Shiloh. I don’t disagree with Blake or Mitch that the UA AotT should be rated higher than the CSA AotM. I don’t disagree with Paul that there were (or can be) reasons to adjust unit quality based on special circumstances such as having had a batch of bad clams for dinner the night before the battle. The point is how does a designer attempt to simulate the initial CSA success in that battle? In my old board game days, one way was to use a special Combat Results Table that depicted the element of surprise for several turns, but not the whole game. Think about this. Did the bold CSA flank attack at Chancellorsville roll up the 11th Corps because it was comprised of higher quality troops or because the CSA deployed superior force in a surprise attack? It seems a number of psychological factors could be accommodated in the existing engine by adding modifiers to existing “routines” such as a minis modifier for fatigue for defenders in melee (presently assessed only against attackers) and for disrupted defending units (I don’t understand why this is presently absent).

Part of the myth of the Civil War is the old 1 Reb can whip 10 Yanks business which often creeps into discussions such as occurring here. Correct me if I am wrong but IMO the primary CSA advantage in the ACW at its outset, and this only in the East was superior CSA leadership. Lee “won” the Seven Days Battle because Maclellan lost heart. Lee won Fredericksburg because the UA attacked positions men of any quality could not take. Proved yet again at Gettysburg. At Gettysburg, UA Officers demonstrated they could pour piss out of a boot without instructions.

Closing, my primary point is that the perfect game engine would allow for temporary scenario specific things like a surprise attack CRT, modifications to morale of units or an entire army based on certain circumstances (the rout of the Old Guard at Waterloo for example) that are presently outside of the scope of the game engine. But tweaks can be made (I think so anyway without being a coder) within the existing engine such as described above. Nonetheless, as I think we all agree, there is no better “simulation” of ACW battles than the WDS ACW games. And here’s to hoping the WDS people keep digging into the heretofore mysterious and impenetrable code to make further improvements to its engine.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 18, 2023 7:14 pm 
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I'm enjoying the discussions here. These are the sort of conversations I was hoping might spring up from time to time as a result of the videos.

There really is no right or wrong philosophy here in regards to game design and creation. As long as the scenario is fun, and people want to play it, you've done a good job. WDS created a good scenario at Shiloh that has been played repeatedly many times - and will continue to be played.

Does it value gameplay "fairness" over "historical accuracy"? Yeah. I don't think anyone is disagreeing with that. Should it be doing that? I think that's where people have varying opinions. And that's okay.

I'd love for WDS to revisit some of these titles and add additional scenarios to them encompassing "what ifs" and alternate setups. Perhaps they could incorporate both a more historically accurate ratings system and a gameplay-oriented system in regards to OOBs. Is that likely? Probably not. But it would be kind of cool.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 18, 2023 8:18 pm 
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Walt Dortch wrote:
This is a great topic and gets to the formidable challenges of game and scenario design. I recall heated debates about whether a game was a true simulation or not based on whether various tweaks have been employed to make it "balanced." Oversimplifying, it is like the toggle switch that can be used to make an AI smarter or dumber which essentially has no historical basis. I tend to land with the folks who favor creating a simulation (and game engine) to the extent it reflects historical unit and leader quality, performance (experience) and condition at the start of a battle. These same things could/should be modified in a Game Title based on performance at a particular battle for scenarios that occur after that battle and the WDS games reflect this to an extent (but inconsistently) between Titles in the Series (see Blakes review of the Overland Title in his Chair and a Game Video’s, Episode 1 )
It can be argued that some of the Optional Rules are balancing rules and I point to the Quality Modifiers as examples of those as compared to other Optional Rules like the Alternate Unit Release Rule which is side neutral. They add (compound actually) to the “stock game” higher average quality of CSA v. UA units which already make CSA units stand longer, rally from rout more often, etc.

Another way to balance games which is used in the WDS games is through “what if” scenario’s which expressly acknowledge (or should in the scenario descriptions which are generally woefully lacking).

Yet another way is to “fix units” to balance a battle like Antietam which would/should always end in a major defeat for the CSA if the UA had had a Sherman or Grant in command that day. I can’t recall if there is an Antietam What If scenario that unlocks all the on-board UA units but who would play it if there was? What CSA fan boy would argue their superior quality troops could carry that day?

So back to Shiloh. I don’t disagree with Blake or Mitch that the UA AotT should be rated higher than the CSA AotM. I don’t disagree with Paul that there were (or can be) reasons to adjust unit quality based on special circumstances such as having had a batch of bad clams for dinner the night before the battle. The point is how does a designer attempt to simulate the initial CSA success in that battle? In my old board game days, one way was to use a special Combat Results Table that depicted the element of surprise for several turns, but not the whole game. Think about this. Did the bold CSA flank attack at Chancellorsville roll up the 11th Corps because it was comprised of higher quality troops or because the CSA deployed superior force in a surprise attack? It seems a number of psychological factors could be accommodated in the existing engine by adding modifiers to existing “routines” such as a minis modifier for fatigue for defenders in melee (presently assessed only against attackers) and for disrupted defending units (I don’t understand why this is presently absent).
Part of the myth of the Civil War is the old 1 Reb can whip 10 Yanks business which often creeps into discussions such as occurring here. Correct me if I am wrong but IMO the primary CSA advantage in the ACW at its outset, and this only in the East was superior CSA leadership. Lee “won” the Seven Days Battle because Maclellan lost heart. Lee won Fredericksburg because the UA attacked positions men of any quality could not take. Proved yet again at Gettysburg. At Gettysburg, UA Officers demonstrated they could pour piss out of a boot without instructions.

Closing, my primary point is that the perfect game engine would allow for temporary scenario specific things like a surprise attack CRT, modifications to morale of units or an entire army based on certain circumstances (the rout of the Old Guard at Waterloo for example) that are presently outside of the scope of the game engine. But tweaks can be made (I think so anyway without being a coder) within the existing engine such as described above. Nonetheless, as I think we all agree, there is no better “simulation” of ACW battles than the WDS ACW games. And here’s to hoping the WDS people keep digging into the heretofore mysterious and impenetrable code to make further improvements to its engine.


A lot there to consider. Some of my thoughts follow.

Optional Rules on Quality Modifier.

There are two separate rules and they're generally checked in most games. I consider them both good rules that assist in reflecting reality. Regrettably, the introduction of changes proposed for WDS v4.03 will negate the benefits from the Optional Melee Modifier Rule as the emphasis will shift much more to raw numbers. That proposed change will significantly effect the units with smaller numbers (usually the CSA) and greatly unbalance any attacker/defender scenarios. That is why I said earlier:
"The introduction of any changes without suitable regard to historical reality and how it operates in the games can fatally flaw the various scenarios as they were originally designed, affecting likely outcomes and victory levels."

Shiloh (and Chancellorsville)

Yes, I also recall that some boardgames were able to resolve the problem of 'surprise' by various methods. I was looking around to find some examples earlier but failed to find any. I suspect some resolved it through using a special CRT as you suggest, others fiddled with the quality of units (like WDS Shiloh I did notice in my search that some rated 25th Missouri higher than most [it can't be based upon prior reputation but must be due to 'performance on the day']), and others (I recall Shiloh in 'Across 5 Aprils') resolved the problem via variance in chits (which provided the ability to use units on the board).

Such methods are not available in the WDS games so the original designers had to use what they had available to them. In terms of Chancellorsville, the full battle is rarely played. It's another one that is near impossible for the CSA to win if you have opposing players of similar ability (win/losses recorded in the DoR reflect that to some degree). I'm unaware of any adjustment to unit quality in that title to try to reflect 'surprise', the result being the CSA usually loses a battle they historically won.

Overall

Yes, it would be nice if tweaks could be made to better reflect surprise. Like you I'm unsure how difficult this would be to achieve. I suspect very difficult as you would need to make specific changes for one or two scenarios within the standard parameters for the overall game engine. Much easier for a board game to achieve as they generally focus on one battle or upon closely related ones (Across 5 Aprils excepted but how you could introduce a chit system to the games is beyond me). So, the Shiloh designer did what he had to do within the limits of game engine. The surprise, poor health, and poor decisions were abstracted into the scenario by fiddling with the unit quality. The Union usually wins so the scenario works as a feasible simulation.

The only other way to simulate surprise and some other factors is through custom designed scenarios (like Blake's ones) with a referee. Then you don't generally know where the enemy is located, their numbers, their quality or who many of the leaders are on the battlefield. You just know that the enemy is there ... somewhere.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 18, 2023 8:29 pm 
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I don't get how you can say the ratings should be based on the battle itself as opposed to the performance of the unit leading up to the battle. As Blake said in sports you rate teams based on their performance before the game and then only reevaluate after the game.

If we are refighting history then why must Iverson be rated so bad at Gettysburg? Shouldn't Iverson's men be given a decent rating since the brigade always fought well before Gettysburg?

We aren't really refighting historical battles if the ratings given the units already reflect what happened in the battle yet to be fought.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 18, 2023 9:16 pm 
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Steve Griffith wrote:
I don't get how you can say the ratings should be based on the battle itself as opposed to the performance of the unit leading up to the battle. As Blake said in sports you rate teams based on their performance before the game and then only reevaluate after the game.

If we are refighting history then why must Iverson be rated so bad at Gettysburg? Shouldn't Iverson's men be given a decent rating since the brigade always fought well before Gettysburg?

We aren't really refighting historical battles if the ratings given the units already reflect what happened in the battle yet to be fought.


Iverson's Ratings at Gettysburg: Command F [F]; Leadership E.

The leaders, and units, are definitely being rated in terms of their performance 'on the day'. As appears here in advertisements for investment opportunities "Past performance is not necessarily a guide to future performance" (or something similar). Consequently, Lee has a lower rating than usual for Gettysburg and no doubt other 'odd' ratings can be found.

Leaders and units are generally rated on how they performed at the time rather than some past battle. Iverson was far in the rear while his men marched forward at Oak Hill where they were slaughtered. There were (unproven) rumours that Iverson was drunk at the time. [The Oak Hill scenario is often used for training new CSA recruits. The recruits generally perform well. I personally can't recall any of them accruing the sort of losses Iverson's Brigade suffered in real life.]

It seems like Lee was glad to see the last of Iverson after Gettysburg. In October he was reassigned to command the State militia in Georgia. In July 1864 Iverson was commanding a cavalry brigade in Georgia where he defeated a Union cavalry force almost twice his size. If that battle appears anywhere on the WDS Atlanta title then I suspect Iverson should be rated fairly well and not rated according to his past performance at Gettysburg.

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