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PostPosted: Sun Oct 15, 2023 1:09 pm 
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Quaama wrote:
The centre of Centreville is only just off Gottfried's map to the north.
The point where you see an arrow emanating from 31 NY (pointing to a circled 4) is Hex {127,31} in the Bull Run scenario. Should the CSA enter that hex then Miles Division will be released from their 'Fixed' status. .


You are WAY off.

The area in question is located much further south than (127, 31). It is at (112, 59).

See the Maps below:

This is where you claim the action occurred. But this is too far north. Jones would have cut-off the Union army. And even if the Rebels reach this position they would NOT unfix a single regiment from Davies brigade. They would only unfix a single unit from Blenker's brigade. The nearest unit from Davies is 14 hexes away!

Image

The actual location is as shown below. This is confirmed by the proximity of the action to Blackburn's Ford and the position of the Butler house along the road.

ImageImage

At the very least, Davies should be unfixed at some point in this battle.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 15, 2023 3:50 pm 
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Blake wrote:
Quaama wrote:
The centre of Centreville is only just off Gottfried's map to the north.
The point where you see an arrow emanating from 31 NY (pointing to a circled 4) is Hex {127,31} in the Bull Run scenario. Should the CSA enter that hex then Miles Division will be released from their 'Fixed' status. .


You are WAY off.

LOL, I think not.

The area in question is located much further south than (127, 31). It is at (112, 59).

It is important to consider the difference in scale between the two maps. More on this below.

See the Maps below:

This is where you claim the action occurred. But this is too far north. Jones would have cut-off the Union army. And even if the Rebels reach this position they would NOT unfix a single regiment from Davies brigade. They would only unfix a single unit from Blenker's brigade. The nearest unit from Davies is 14 hexes away!

As mentioned in my previous post, I believe "Blenker's brigade should probably be where Davies' brigade is and vice versa". As Miles reported:
"He [the CSA unit] opened fire, which was handsomely returned. In this affair three of the Sixteenth New York Volunteers were wounded. The skirmishers report the force of the enemy greatly damaged by Greene’s battery [attached to Davies' brigade]. I made no other attempt on this ford, my orders being on no account to get into a general engagement."

Specifically, in the WDS scenario, Greens's battery [Davies] should be where the four guns from Blenker's battery are located {121,33}. The infantry unit at {122,31} should be a regiment of Davies brigade, probably 16 NY.



Image

The actual location is as shown below. This is confirmed by the proximity of the action to Blackburn's Ford and the position of the Butler house along the road.

ImageImage

At the very least, Davies should be unfixed at some point in this battle.

Ahhh, here is where we get back to the different scale between the two maps. In the Gottfried map you can see from the legend at the bottom shows the distance represented by 1200 yards. That means that Jones Brigade is at Little Rocky Run over 4,000 yards to the north-east from the closest part of Bull Run. In the WDS map you have a hex equating to 125 square yards. So, in the WDS map immediately above, the point where the red line shows Jones to be crossing Little Rocky Run is only 750 yards from the closest part of Bull Run.

Therefore, Jones was much farther north at the next available crossing, {127,31}. The actual crossing should probably be a few hexes south as its current position puts it about 5,000 yards from the closest part of Bull Run.
If you look at a contemporary map of the area you will see that the Braddock Road [not to be confused with the New Braddock Road] does indeed cross Little Rocky Run about 4,000 yards north-east of Bull Run. [I also note that the Warrenton Turnpike east of Centreville is currently named Lee Highway, most commendable (although I suspect the renaming mania may be onto this before too long).]


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 15, 2023 7:24 pm 
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It's okay to admit when you are wrong, Paul :mrgreen:

The evidence pretty much continues to confirm what I am saying. The action with Davies and Jones occurred nowhere near Centreville.


Image

Why the difference in the map scales? I couldn't tell you. One has the action occurring 300 yards from the Bull Run and the other 3,600 yards. My guess is that the editors of the Gottfried book wrote "yards" but meant to write "feet" on the map. Even then... who knows? The maps agree in all details except the scale. And the fact that Centreville is wayyyyyyy to the north :wink:

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 15, 2023 7:28 pm 
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Ha, that could be so. That map shows a very different situation to that portrayed in the Gottfried map. Where's it from?

I'll look into it some more. We'll get a definitive answer somehow.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 15, 2023 7:30 pm 
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Quaama wrote:
Ha, that could be so. That map shows a very different situation to that portrayed in the Gottfried map. Where's it from?

I'll look into it some more. We'll get a definitive answer somehow.



The Longacre book.

Ha, I have spent an enjoyable Sunday debating this point with you, sir. Next weekend we must find some other mundane topic to flood the MDT with :mrgreen:

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 15, 2023 9:24 pm 
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Nothing definitive yet and I have to move off and do some other (far less interesting) things.

Here's what I've found so far. [Don't forget I believe in the scenario the positions of Davies and Blenker should be swapped.]
Miles Report (https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=coo.31924077730186&seq=441&q1=) says:
"It was at this time the order was received to post two brigades on the Warrenton turnpike at the bridge. I without delay sent a staff officer to order forward Davies’ brigade, but whilst this officer was executing my instructions Davies sent word he wanted a reserve regiment forward—that the enemy, some 3,000, was attempting to turn his flank.";
"The attack on Davies’ position caused painful apprehension for the safety of the left flank of the Army, and deeming it of the first importance that my division should occupy the strongest position, I sent instruction to Davies and Richardson to have their brigades fall back on Centreville.";
"I then returned to Centreville, and found Davies’ and Richardson’s brigades arriving, and commenced placing them in position—Richardson’s brigade, with Greene’s battery, being placed about one-half mile in advance of Centreville heights, his line of battle facing Blackburn’s Ford."; and
"Blenker’s brigade, whilst on the Warrenton road, was charged by cavalry, but by a prompt and skillful fire he emptied several saddles, and relieved himself from further annoyance."

The big question is: Where are the Centreville heights? [I'm thinking it is the plateau extending south from Centreville.] We have Miles talking about: "fall back on Centreville"; Davies being worried about his left; and Blenker being way up on the Warrenton road (being charged by CSA cavalry [who was that!]). Based upon that I'm thinking D.R. Jones had his force approaching the more northern crossing over Little Rocky Run (close to Centreville) rather than the crossing further south (much closer to Bull Run).

In Beauregard's report (https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=coo.31924077730186&seq=514&q1=) he says:
"General D. R. Jones early in the day crossing Bull Run with his brigade, pursuant to orders indicating his part in the projected attack by our right wing and center on the enemy at Centreville, took up a position on the Union Mills and Centreville road more than a mile in advance of the run. Ordered back, in consequence of the miscarriage of the orders to General Ewell, the retrograde movement was necessarily made under a sharp fire of artillery."

Having Jones "more than a mile in advance of the run" would also seem to put him near the crossing close to Centreville (the more southern crossing being only a few hundred yards north of Bull Run.

I also found this map (https://www.loc.gov/resource/gvhs01.vhs00060/?r=0.6,0.262,0.355,0.215,0). I can't paste it to this forum zoomed in to show sufficient detail but south-east of Centreville you see handwriting (and a line) that says "Beauregard's proposed flank march". The line of that march heads to the crossing close to Centreville. I believe that is the crossing Jones headed to, especially in view of the earlier statement that he was "more than a mile in advance of the run".

Here (https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=coo.31924077730186&seq=553&q1=) is Beauregard's order to Jones (two-thirds down). The order is then countermanded at the end of that page.

I'll be happy to see any other information you or anyone else has that can help make a definitive determination. Also, I'd love to know which CS cavalry unit was wandering around west of Centreville and charging Blenker on the Warrenton Pike. I'd never heard of such a thing until now.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 16, 2023 2:04 pm 
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I think I have now resolved the matter. Long story short, I now believe that the most likely route that Jones took was the one described by Blake, along the east-west trail that crosses Little Rocky Run about 1400 yards from Blackburn's Ford NOT the crossing closer to Centreville using the Braddock Road.

Based upon the above and what follows I think that the scale in the Gottfried map should be 'feet' not 'yards'.

My main reason for now concurring with Blake's assessment is the report of Davies (https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=coo.31924077730186&seq=444&q1=) which says (my emphasis in bold and additions in brackets):
"The Second Brigade, under my command, was in readiness to march from camp at 2.30 a. m., but the road was so blocked with moving troops that my brigade shortly after daylight took a parallel route through the fields, Greene’s battery in advance, till it struck the road leading to Blackburn’s Ford, about one mile south of Centreville. At this point Colonel Miles gave me directions to assume the command of Richardson’s brigade [this may be why Richardson later saw fit to claim Miles was drunk], and to take position in front of the batteries at Blackburn’s Ford on and near the battle ground of the 18th instant, and make the demonstration of attack, in pursuance of General McDowell’s orders. I immediately ordered forward the two 20-pounder rifled guns of Hunt’s battery [Richardson's brigade], commanded by Lieutenant Edwards, into an open field, about eighty yards east of the road from Centreville to Bull Bun and on a line with the place where our batteries were playing on the 18th instant, and about fifteen hundred yards from the enemy’s batteries at Blackburn’s Ford, and commenced a rapid firing. I ordered the Eighteenth Regiment forward as a protection to this battery, in the open field, and formed line of battle facing the enemy, the Thirty-second Regiment being held in reserve on the road just in rear.

Having ascertained from my guide that there was a road without obstruction leading from the Centreville road to the east, and then bearing off toward the south in the direction of the enemy’s position, and which could be seen about half a mile distant to the east from Lieutenant Edwards’ battery [Richardson's brigade], I ordered the Sixteenth and Thirty-first Regiments New York Volunteers on to this road at its junction with the Centreville road; one regiment deployed along the road a considerable distance, and the other remaining in column to protect two guns of Hunt’s battery which I ordered to be stationed at that point. I then gave orders to Colonel Richardson to make such arrangements with regard to the defense of the position in front of the enemy’s batteries at Blackburn’s Ford (the immediate battle-ground of the 18th instant) as in his judgment the emergency of the moment might require. At this juncture, being about 10 o’clock a. m., and finding the ammunition for the 20-pounder rifle guns was fast running out, and having accomplished, in my judgment, from the movement of the troops opposite, which we could plainly see, the demonstration ordered, I ordered Lieutenant Edwards to cease firing.

About 11 o’clock Colonel Miles came on the ground, informing me that he had ordered forward the Sixteenth and Thirty-first Regiments from the positions in which I had previously placed them, and also the two guns commanded by Lieutenant Platt, and had also ordered forward the other two guns of Hunt’s battery into the open field where Lieutenant Edwards’ guns had been firing, and ordered the Eighteenth Regiment back out of the open field into the woods on the Centreville road as a reserve. The Thirty-second Regiment, by Colonel Miles’ order, remained as a reserve in column on the Centreville road, about three-quarters of a mile in rear. Colonel Miles then ordered me to continue the firing without regard to ammunition, which I did till I received an order to stop, about two hours later. As soon as Colonel Miles left me again in command I sent back the brigade corps of pioneers to the back road, whence the two regiments had been removed, with instructions to fell trees and completely block the road, which they effectually did. We had during the afternoon unmistakable evidence that a large column of cavalry and infantry had attempted to take us in rear by means of this road, for when they were returning, having been stopped by the fallen trees, Major Hunt, with his howitzers, and Lieutenant Greene and Lieutenant Edwards, with their rifled guns, poured a heavy fire into their column, the effect of which we could not ascertain, but it must have been destructive, as the distance was only from a half to three-quarters of a mile.

In the course of the day two companies, and later four companies, of the Thirty-first and two of the Sixteenth were, by Colonel Miles’ order, thrown forward to feel the enemy’s strength to the front and left in the direction of Bull Run. They found the enemy posted in the woods, and were recalled. They reported having killed several of the rebel scouts.
The afternoon, till about 4 o’clock, was passed in great inactivity, except the firing by the rifled cannon at moving columns of the enemy at great distances." [Some more action followed later, see report for details.]
_______________________________________________________________________________________


I also discovered that the cavalry action against Blenker on the Warrenton Turnpike east of Centreville did not occur until just after 2100. Blenker's report immediately precedes that of Davies in the official records. Here's an excerpt:
"The retreat of great numbers of flying soldiers continued till 9 o’clock in the evening, the great majority in wild confusion, but few in collected bodies. Soon afterwards several squadrons of the enemy’s cavalry advanced along the road and appeared before the outposts. They were challenged by “Who comes there?” and remaining without any answer, I being just present at the outposts, called, “Union forever.” Whereupon the officer of the enemy’s cavalry commanded, En avant; en avant. Knock him down.” Now the skirmishers fired, when the enemy turned around, leaving several killed and wounded on the spot. About nine prisoners, who were already in their hands, were liberated by this action. Afterwards we were several times molested from various sides by the enemy’s cavalry."
_____________________________________________________________________________________________


So, what to do about Miles' division being fixed in the game? I tend to think it should probably stay fixed as Miles says he was ordered "on no account to get into a general engagement". Miles was placed near Centreville to act as a reserve and to protect Centreville (hence the building of defensive works there). It would be nice if he was permitted some freedom of movement beyond his original positions, but the game doesn't really permit such a thing. If 'released' he would be free to wander off to wherever the controlling player desires. So, I feel the designers did the only thing they could given the historical situation and the restrictions of the game engine, they had Miles division fixed unless released by Confederate action.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 20, 2023 6:40 pm 
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Quaama wrote:
L.P. Smith wrote:
Bill Peters wrote:
I know that Ewell's brigade spent the battle counter-marching and was not truly engaged in the Battle of First Bull Run but what of Holmes' Brigade? From what I gather, Holmes was part of Ewell's command. Did this mean that he and his men also did not take part in the battle?


Holmes's small brigade wasn't on the battlefield. They were posted to support the Confederate guns along the Potomac by watching for any crossing over the lower Occuquan River, which Bull Creek flows into. They were ordered to the battlefield, but did not make it in time to participate.

Holmes' command was independent of Ewell.



How do you arrive at that conclusion?
Holmes was most definitely at Manassas where he was ordered to be as I showed earlier. He was nowhere near the lower Occuquan or the guns along the Potomac.

On 20th July we have Beauregard ordering (https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=coo.31924077730186&seq=495&q1=):
"Brigadier-General Ewell’s brigade, supported by General Holmes’ brigade, will march via Union Mills Ford and place itself in position of attack upon the enemy. It will be held in readiness either to support the attack upon Centreville or to move in the direction of Sangster’s Cross-Roads, according to circumstances."
We also have Beauregard's report on the battle which says (https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=coo.31924077730186&seq=502&q1=):
"In view of these palpable military conditions, by 4.30 a. m. on the 21st of July I had prepared and dispatched orders directing the whole of the Confederate forces within the lines of Bull Run, including the brigades and regiments of General Johnston, which had arrived at that time, to be held in readiness to march at a moment’s notice. At that hour the following was the disposition of our forces: Ewell’s brigade, constituted as on the 18th of July, remained in position at Union Mills Ford, its left extending along Bull Run in the direction of McLean’s Ford, and supported by Holmes’ brigade."
That is where we find Holmes in the historical Bull Run scenario: in support of Ewell near the ford at Union Mills.


You are right actually. I had read the William C. Davis "Battle of Bull Run" years ago and have read through the OR for 1861 in Virginia. I think I was confusing Holmes' movement to Bull Run with some of his post Bull Run postings. Holmes' two regiments and battery were in Fredericksburg when ordered up by Beauregard, and they did make it in time for the battle (well, the two infantry regiments did), but were placed on the far right in rear of Ewell's brigade. You rarely see Holmes' small brigade on any battle map. Holmes was supposed to follow Ewell's brigade in Beauregard's flanking attack, but Holmes didn't move forward since he didn't receive an order from Beauregard (Holmes says) and only received a communication from Ewell to follow Ewell's brigade across the creek.

Interestingly, apparently Beauregard had spoken of creating two corps out of the troops he had and made up of several divisions. This obviously didn't come to fruition, but he had said Holmes would be a division commander. Holmes did outrank Ewell.

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