American Civil War Game Club (ACWGC)
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Question about club rules
http://www.wargame.ch/board/acwgc/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=24010		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  RichWalker [ Wed Oct 08, 2025 7:31 am ]
Post subject:  Question about club rules
If I am moving through the woods in column formation and stumble into a limbered artillery unit, can I melee? Seems like I should be able to, but I wanted to check as I know performing a melee in column formation is generally not allowed, but I wanted to know the exceptions. And I know you can across a bridge.
Author:  krmiller_usa [ Wed Oct 08, 2025 8:26 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Question about club rules
No Melee in column is a House rule not a Club rule.
It's one I require of all my opponents, no infantry column melee except when crossing bridges/fords and the first hex beyond, but is not required by the club.
If you were playing under that rule you would not be permitted to melee the limbered artillery.
Author:  nsimms [ Wed Oct 08, 2025 8:44 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Question about club rules
I usually refuse to play with any house rules, but I agree with Ken. I would like to point out though that house rules have to be established before a game is started. If no house rules were agreed upon, then the game is being played without any house rules. That means that if no house rules were agreed upon for your game, then you can melee that arty unit with a unit in column, regardless of where it is located (as long as the game engine will allow it) and whether it be daytime or nighttime.
Author:  RichWalker [ Wed Oct 08, 2025 9:22 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Question about club rules
Thanks for the clarifications. The only house rule we discussed was limiting arty stacking to 6 per hex, unless it was a moving pass-through situation. However, I will check to make sure I didn't miss it. Only thing is my opponent is in a 12-hour time zone a head of me. Again thanks!
Author:  Kent Scarbough [ Wed Oct 08, 2025 6:17 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Question about club rules
How many people use this house rule, if I may ask, and what is the rationale behind it?
Author:  Quaama [ Wed Oct 08, 2025 8:00 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Question about club rules
Kent Scarbough wrote:
How many people use this house rule, if I may ask, and what is the rationale behind it?


When I first joined the Club it was quite common for people to request that house rule. They claimed such a thing only rarely occurred in real life (except in towns and hexes surrounding a bridge). I hated it as the claim was wrong. There are numerous instances recorded in the Official Records (and elsewhere) of attacks in column. Schooled in Napoleonic tactics, there were frequent occurrences of melees in column although it became increasingly rare as the war entered 1864 as both sides learnt of the heavier casualties when attacking in that manner (mostly due to advancements in weaponry since Napoleonic times).
In the WDS games such attacks generally result in higher than normal casualties for the 'column attacker'. That's fine by me as it also accords with history.

I am Rich's opponent in the game he mentioned so I advised him to proceed as he saw fit. He proceeded with the melee and the battery was pushed out (and I think I lost a gun). Anxious for some payback one of my infantry units moved forward to shoot those 'column attackers' in the back.

Apart from the Club 'house rules' I usually only have house rules on Artillery Stacking Limits (https://www.wargame.ch/board/acwgc/viewtopic.php?f=134&t=22657) and Night Move Restrictions (https://www.wargame.ch/board/acwgc/viewtopic.php?f=134&t=22658).
Author:  TReneau [ Thu Oct 09, 2025 12:50 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Question about club rules
I have always preferred not to have prohibitions against any night action for reasons of historical accuracy. It happened a good deal more than we realize in the war (see below link). Question is, does the game engine penalize the combatants enough for being involved in such things?

https://civilwartalk.com/threads/night-attacks.80093/
Author:  RichWalker [ Thu Oct 09, 2025 2:18 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Question about club rules
TReneau wrote:
I have always preferred not to have prohibitions against any night action for reasons of historical accuracy. It happened a good deal more than we realize in the war (see below link). Question is, does the game engine penalize the combatants enough for being involved in such things?

https://civilwartalk.com/threads/night-attacks.80093/


I believe it does. You can only fire in line and if you move in line, you are disrupted and cannot melee. And trying to rally at night is very difficult. Also, just moving along a road will cost you FA points, even where no enemy is nearby.
Author:  Quaama [ Thu Oct 09, 2025 3:04 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Question about club rules
TReneau wrote:
I have always preferred not to have prohibitions against any night action for reasons of historical accuracy. It happened a good deal more than we realize in the war (see below link). Question is, does the game engine penalize the combatants enough for being involved in such things?

https://civilwartalk.com/threads/night-attacks.80093/


The link seems to confirm that there were no major actions of movements during the night. Some skirmishes and raids listed and apparently they were in contact when night fell. I can't say for sure but I suspect that most were during, or near a full moon. The Night Move Restrictions (https://wargame.ch/board/acwgc/viewtopic.php?f=134&t=22658) house rule should adequately cover such things.

I don't think the game engine really penalises such things as mass night movement (to appear on the flank or rear of an enemy in the morning) as suffering some fatigue for such an advantage would be worthwhile. Fighting at night does seem to be adequately penalised. On the few occasions (with Night Restrictions in place [those in contact at nightfall, and within twilight visability at nightfall, can fight on]) when it has occurred in my games, one side or the other either stops within a few hours or routs away. Units in rout at night usually stay that way until Dawn due to penalties incurred.
Author:  TReneau [ Thu Oct 09, 2025 3:29 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Question about club rules
What? Cleburne's attack through Winfrey Field at Chickamauga at night, just to name one of the attacks mentioned in the link wasn't a major night action? I must agree to disagree.
Author:  nsimms [ Thu Oct 09, 2025 5:22 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Question about club rules
To me, manual rules (house rules) are for miniatures and board games. The advantage of computer games is that the computer will do all of that manual work for you.

I have to take my hat off to the members that have multiple games going and all with different options and house rules. I would not be able to consistently remember which rules that I'm using for each game. I have enough of a problem with the computer's variations from game to game, such as movement in woods, max stacking, gun stacking, command distances, and differences in how much casualties count; but at least the computer is keeping me honest.

If you are new to the games, and you don't know how to use a parameter table, you need to ask your commander (or a friendly opponent) how to do so. When the designers make changes in the parameter table (or combat results in the Victory Dialogue), they seldom advise the players in the game description. A review of the parameter table will provide answers to most of your questions, but as for combat results, you just won't know until you have some casualties.
Author:  Quaama [ Thu Oct 09, 2025 6:47 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Question about club rules
TReneau wrote:
What? Cleburne's attack through Winfrey Field at Chickamauga at night, just to name one of the attacks mentioned in the link wasn't a major night action? I must agree to disagree.


Orders to advance were received at 3:30 pm and the attack started in daylight (https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=coo.31924077699878&seq=158&q1=). It was called off a couple of hours later due to darkness according to Hill's report (https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=coo.31924077699878&seq=147&q1=.
This contemporary commentary https://32ndmississippi.blogspot.com/2013/09/cleburnes-nighttime-attack-in-day-2-of.html) has the action stopping at 9:00pm.
This diary account (p29 https://louis.uah.edu/huntsville-historical-review/vol26/iss2/3/) confirms that, after being in position at 5:00 pm, they then moved forward at 6:30 pm with it all being over by 8:00 pm. After the action had stopped the diarist was then sent out at 9:00 pm as skirmishers which aligns with Hill's report.
Thanks to this (https://aa.usno.navy.mil/calculated/rstt/year?ID=AA&year=1863&task=0&lat=34.87&lon=-85.38&label=Chickamauga%2C+GA&tz=5&tz_sign=-1&submit=Get+Data) I was even able to confirm that on 19 September 1863 the sun set at 6:43 pm at Chickamauga. The WDS Chickamauga scenario has Dusk at 7:00 pm so that's pretty close as there is usually light after the sun has set (same as there light before it rises). I love that the games have attention to details like that piece of trivia.

The Night Move Restrictions are an invaluable house rule to prevent unrealistic night moves and actions. The allowance for 'in contact' and nearby units to continue fighting permits actions like Cleburne's attack to occur.
Author:  TReneau [ Fri Oct 10, 2025 5:57 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Question about club rules
On Winfrey Field - I'm just not buying what you are selling. In your own findings you point out the concentrated attempt way after sundown, for the Confederates in push the Yankee lines back, even while the Yanks attempted to withdraw. The Rebs pushed further. If I understand them correctly, under your rules, infantry units already engaged during the twilight hours, can continue shooting at one another, but the refs blow the play dead during the night time hours if there is an attempt at forward progress by infantry even if the enemy withdraws? Is that correct? Only lateral movement allowed?

Your night rules: "No forward movement of infantry line, units in contact can fight unless one side withdraws;
Surrounded forces can attempt to break out and may be assisted by other units within four hexes (twilight visibility limit);
Units in contact at nightfall, and those within twilight visibility of the enemy unit in contact, may continue to engage during night; Lateral movement behind the lines, supply, reinforcements permitted;
Cavalry can probe, scout on roads (and trails etc.) only, pull back on contact; and
Units may dig-in."

What about other battles where the opposing lines didn't start a fight until after dark? Or early in the morning before dawn?
Some of these examples may include Battle of Franklin, Ft. Steadman, Milliken's Bend, Spangler Farm at Gettysburg, The battle of Wauhatchie, TN and I'm sure others.

Perhaps less known are examples of FORWARD movement by infantry units during the night-time that didn't result in a clash or battle. We don't even discuss these, but under your rules only lateral movement is allowed?

To sum up, I'm just saying that there are some historical examples where night-time action did occur, and they involve all kinds of situations and some of them where forward progress was the goal and not conditioned by any fighting carried over from the twilight hours. For these reasons I don't put a prohibition on night action. Rich Walker does point out some of the obvious draw-backs to fighting at night giving most players valid reasons not to engage when the sun goes down. Everyone has a right to submit their own house rules and for the other side to either agree or not. I respect the rules you put forward, I just wouldn't agree to them, for historical reasons.
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