American Civil War Game Club (ACWGC)

ACWGC Forums

* ACWGC    * Dpt. of Records (DoR)    *Club Recruiting Office     ACWGC Memorial

* CSA HQ    * VMI   * Join CSA    

* Union HQ   * UMA   * Join Union    

CSA Armies:   ANV   AoT

Union Armies:   AotP    AotT

Link Express

Club Forums:     NWC    CCC     Home Pages:     NWC    CCC    ACWGC
It is currently Sat Oct 18, 2025 12:50 pm

All times are UTC - 5 hours




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 26 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2
Author Message
PostPosted: Fri Oct 10, 2025 4:04 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun May 14, 2017 1:55 am
Posts: 1175
Location: Tennessee
Quaama wrote:
(Night Rules) are intended to stop the forward movement of massed units during the night. I'm sure my opponent doesn't want dawn to arrive and find that I have a Division or Corps on his flank/rear, and I certainly don't want him to do it to me.


If you think about it, it's kind of silly. Wasn't the goal of darn near every general in every battle to achieve just that situation?



The entire Union battle plan at Manassas was a night march around the Confederate flank to surprise them. In fairness, the plan worked. But other setbacks caused the eventual defeat.

At Fort Donelson the Confederates attacked in the pre-dawn darkness to drive back the Union flank and make good their escape.

At Shiloh, the Confederates crept up in the night to their final attack positions and began moving forward even before sunup.

An Antietam, Hooker and Mansfield were sent to the army flank to launch a pre-dawn attack on the Confederate flank. This they did by attacking on the 17th just before the sun was up. Little did they know Stuart had moved guns to Nicodemus Hill which is another example of getting on your opponent's flank during the darkness.

At Brandy Station, the Union cavalry nearly wrecked the Confederates by rapidly advancing under the cover of darkness and slicing up their lines.

At 2nd Winchester, Early's Division moved in the darkness to get around the Union fortifications and by dawn had outmaneuvered them to where surrender and/or inglorious retreat were the only options.

At Gettysburg, I can't recall all the details, but a lot of the fighting at Culp's Hill revolved around trying to outflank the opposing line in the darkness. The Yankees won that fight for sure as their line stretched further and enfiladed the attacking Confederates in the darkness.

Grant and Lee didn't wait until sunup after the Battle of the Wilderness to start trying to flank one another. As soon as the sun went down they were marching hard to try to get around each other.

Going back to the American Revolution (because I am reading about that more in-depth these days), the Americans marched all night to reach and entrench on Bunker's Hill under darkness. This prompted the British to make a foolish charge against them the next day.

The British got us back at the Battle of Brooklyn in which they marched all night around our flank and then completely routed Washington's army back from their defenses.

Not to be outdone, Washington spent all of Christmas night in 1776 crossing the Delaware to attack Trenton where he routed and captured the Hessians at dawn.

I am sure the examples can go on and on and on.




The point is that armies and generals were always trying to outflank one another under the cover of darkness. It should be the responsibility of the player in the game to anticipate this and place men on the key roads to stop such obvious movements.

_________________
Gen. Blake Strickler
Confederate General-in-Chief
El Presidente 2010 - 2012

Image


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Fri Oct 10, 2025 7:48 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Oct 07, 2020 10:42 pm
Posts: 830
Location: Port Macquarie NSW Australia
@Blake
LOL, I can't be off researching the lot of them!

Still, as I still have The Maps of Gettysburg next to me I can address that one. On Culp's Hill it says:
Commands rang out: "Forward--guide center!"
The time was approaching 7:00 p.m.

From my earlier research sunset on 2 July 1863 at Gettysburg was 7:59 pm and the full moon was the day before [I think it was cloudy on the day of the full moon]. So, plenty of light when Culp's Hill started. It was all over by 9:30 pm, apart from some sporadic firing by some of the boys.

I'm sure some of the examples you provided are true night actions but they were relatively rare. I agree that generals were often trying to outflank each other under the cover of darkness. However, both armies generally made sure that they had pickets and scouts out to warn them of such things. The game doesn't allow such things, so you are completely vulnerable if complete freedom of movement is permitted during the night turns. [This was partially overcome by the introduction of 10-man scouting cavalry units in some of your earlier MP games. Sadly, the v4.03 rule change meant that those units became far less effective for their functions (i.e. cavalry had to exceed 50 men to exert a skirmish ability).]

I think Night Move Restrictions are a great tool for multiple-day battles. However, as I said earlier, people are free to use them, not use them or adapt them as they see fit. No obligation. It is a house rule and, like all house rules, must be agreed upon prior to the start of a game.

_________________
Paul Swanson
Lieutenant-General
First Division
First Corps
Army of Northern Virginia


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Sat Oct 11, 2025 12:41 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jun 18, 2002 6:07 pm
Posts: 117
Location: USA
IMHO,

There are enough rules built into the code and PDT files to dissuade a player from wanting to make a night attack. I don't see any reason for house rules. With that said, I will always play with whatever rules my opponents wishes to use. Especially since I usually only play one game at a time.

_________________
Brigadier General Richard Walker
II Corps, 4th Division, 6th Brigade
Army of Tennessee
(JTS/WDS Scenario Designer)


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Sun Oct 12, 2025 4:37 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Feb 03, 2022 11:43 am
Posts: 680
Location: Ireland
RichWalker wrote:
IMHO,

There are enough rules built into the code and PDT files to dissuade a player from wanting to make a night attack. I don't see any reason for house rules. With that said, I will always play with whatever rules my opponents wishes to use. Especially since I usually only play one game at a time.


<Salute> sir,

I've been following this thread, in the background, and tend to agree with your take regarding night attacks and the need for 'House Rules', an oft source of contention I suggest.

I specifically noted your comment regarding only playing one game at a time, and applaud, once again, your take upon this. In my limited time here at the ACWGC I have never failed to be amazed, dumbfounded and even confused as to how some members have the ability to play multiple games at one time. Perhaps I'm just stupid or slow but having multiple games on the go at one time is, I believe, a recipe for disaster, and indeed I have observed this a several occasions previously, lack of focus, confused moves, incorrect turns etc etc etc. Indeed there are members playing in excess of 10 games at a time, a ludicrous number I personally believe.

_________________
Karl McEntegart
General
2nd Brigade
2nd (Gator Alley) Division
Army of Tennessee





Make my enemy brave and strong, so that if defeated, I will not be ashamed.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Sun Oct 12, 2025 4:47 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Oct 07, 2020 10:42 pm
Posts: 830
Location: Port Macquarie NSW Australia
Karl McEntegart wrote:
RichWalker wrote:
IMHO,

There are enough rules built into the code and PDT files to dissuade a player from wanting to make a night attack. I don't see any reason for house rules. With that said, I will always play with whatever rules my opponents wishes to use. Especially since I usually only play one game at a time.


<Salute> sir,

I've been following this thread, in the background, and tend to agree with your take regarding night attacks and the need for 'House Rules', an oft source of contention I suggest.

I specifically noted your comment regarding only playing one game at a time, and applaud, once again, your take upon this. In my limited time here at the ACWGC I have never failed to be amazed, dumbfounded and even confused as to how some members have the ability to play multiple games at one time. Perhaps I'm just stupid or slow but having multiple games on the go at one time is, I believe, a recipe for disaster, and indeed I have observed this a several occasions previously, lack of focus, confused moves, incorrect turns etc etc etc. Indeed there are members playing in excess of 10 games at a time, a ludicrous number I personally believe.


LOL, in my earlier times in the Club I had up to six games ongoing at the same time. The only thing I made sure of was that they were on different maps, more than one battle on the same map would have been confusing.
I've slowed down a lot since then and currently only have one game ongoing.

_________________
Paul Swanson
Lieutenant-General
First Division
First Corps
Army of Northern Virginia


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Thu Oct 16, 2025 6:12 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jun 10, 2025 9:23 am
Posts: 49
Location: North East Georgia
Paul,

Thank you for your response to my question. This matches how I feel about it. I do it upon occasion and yes you do take more casualties as history reflects and that is fine! I would not question anyone doing it, nor has anyone ever questioned me doing it, which is why I asked. Obviously, its not that common but in certain situations, I say attack.



Quaama wrote:
Kent Scarbough wrote:
How many people use this house rule, if I may ask, and what is the rationale behind it?


When I first joined the Club it was quite common for people to request that house rule. They claimed such a thing only rarely occurred in real life (except in towns and hexes surrounding a bridge). I hated it as the claim was wrong. There are numerous instances recorded in the Official Records (and elsewhere) of attacks in column. Schooled in Napoleonic tactics, there were frequent occurrences of melees in column although it became increasingly rare as the war entered 1864 as both sides learnt of the heavier casualties when attacking in that manner (mostly due to advancements in weaponry since Napoleonic times).
In the WDS games such attacks generally result in higher than normal casualties for the 'column attacker'. That's fine by me as it also accords with history.

I am Rich's opponent in the game he mentioned so I advised him to proceed as he saw fit. He proceeded with the melee and the battery was pushed out (and I think I lost a gun). Anxious for some payback one of my infantry units moved forward to shoot those 'column attackers' in the back.

Apart from the Club 'house rules' I usually only have house rules on Artillery Stacking Limits (https://www.wargame.ch/board/acwgc/viewtopic.php?f=134&t=22657) and Night Move Restrictions (https://www.wargame.ch/board/acwgc/viewtopic.php?f=134&t=22658).

_________________
Lt. Colonel Kent Scarbrough
5th Brigade
Swanson's 1st Division
Isgro's 1st Corp
Army of Northern Virginia

Love many, trust few, do harm to none.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Thu Oct 16, 2025 7:09 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun May 14, 2017 1:55 am
Posts: 1175
Location: Tennessee
Column Melee House Rules

If I had to guess, and this might be confirmed by some old timers like Ned Simms, DW Mallory, or Mark Nelms, but I bet that when the HPS version of the games was released that many people played the game in Turns. This is poorly named, I know! But in "Turns" each player moves, fires, and melees all in the same turn. You can move, melee, fire, move, melee, fire, fire, melee, move, fire... and so on as long as you have Movement Points and units available. This allowed people the opportunity to utilize blitz tactics. They could then melee back a few units and punch a hole in the enemy line. Then, in the same turn, move more units into the breech and melee some more to widen the hole. Then, if they were really good, they would send cavalry riding through the hole to capture generals, wagons, and artillery in the rear. A single turn might spell total disaster for a player!

To prevent this, my guess, is that people instituted the "no melee in column" rule to prevent people from marching along roads to really exploit a gap made during the turn. You might set up column infantry units 8 hexes away from the enemy behind a hill along a road, then march down the road and melee mercilessly in column. You'd probably never see it coming.

Playing in "Phases" has now become the norm to the point where hardly anyone plays or remembers using "Turn" based play. The no melee in column rule remains a ephemeral rule from the old days which we often mention out of habit or a belief that it is an ordained fact you must use it.

Does melee in column really help someone all that much in phased play vs. turn play? Depends who you ask. :mrgreen:

_________________
Gen. Blake Strickler
Confederate General-in-Chief
El Presidente 2010 - 2012

Image


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Thu Oct 16, 2025 8:07 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jun 18, 2002 6:07 pm
Posts: 117
Location: USA
Blake wrote:
Column Melee House Rules

If I had to guess, and this might be confirmed by some old timers like Ned Simms, DW Mallory, or Mark Nelms, but I bet that when the HPS version of the games was released that many people played the game in Turns. This is poorly named, I know! But in "Turns" each player moves, fires, and melees all in the same turn. You can move, melee, fire, move, melee, fire, fire, melee, move, fire... and so on as long as you have Movement Points and units available. This allowed people the opportunity to utilize blitz tactics. They could then melee back a few units and punch a hole in the enemy line. Then, in the same turn, move more units into the breech and melee some more to widen the hole. Then, if they were really good, they would send cavalry riding through the hole to capture generals, wagons, and artillery in the rear. A single turn might spell total disaster for a player!

To prevent this, my guess, is that people instituted the "no melee in column" rule to prevent people from marching along roads to really exploit a gap made during the turn. You might set up column infantry units 8 hexes away from the enemy behind a hill along a road, then march down the road and melee mercilessly in column. You'd probably never see it coming.

Playing in "Phases" has now become the norm to the point where hardly anyone plays or remembers using "Turn" based play. The no melee in column rule remains a ephemeral rule from the old days which we often mention out of habit or a belief that it is an ordained fact you must use it.

Does melee in column really help someone all that much in phased play vs. turn play? Depends who you ask. :mrgreen:


Just one note, units that fired lost all their MPs. They could still melee, but once fired, they could move no longer. That has never changed. I wasn't sure if you were saying that individual unit could move, fire, and move again. If so, that would be untrue dating back to Talonsoft days. I talked John into creating the extra melee phase to do away with blitz tactics, in the early HPS days.

_________________
Brigadier General Richard Walker
II Corps, 4th Division, 6th Brigade
Army of Tennessee
(JTS/WDS Scenario Designer)


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Thu Oct 16, 2025 10:32 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun May 14, 2017 1:55 am
Posts: 1175
Location: Tennessee
Correct, Rich, once you fire or melee, in any phase, you are done moving for that turn.

I'd have enjoyed being a fly on the wall for the conversation about adding the melee phase :mrgreen:

_________________
Gen. Blake Strickler
Confederate General-in-Chief
El Presidente 2010 - 2012

Image


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Fri Oct 17, 2025 8:05 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue May 22, 2001 10:10 pm
Posts: 1074
Location: USA
Blake wrote:
Column Melee House Rules

If I had to guess, and this might be confirmed by some old timers like Ned Simms, DW Mallory, or Mark Nelms, but I bet that when the HPS version of the games was released that many people played the game in Turns. This is poorly named, I know! But in "Turns" each player moves, fires, and melees all in the same turn. You can move, melee, fire, move, melee, fire, fire, melee, move, fire... and so on as long as you have Movement Points and units available. This allowed people the opportunity to utilize blitz tactics. They could then melee back a few units and punch a hole in the enemy line. Then, in the same turn, move more units into the breech and melee some more to widen the hole. Then, if they were really good, they would send cavalry riding through the hole to capture generals, wagons, and artillery in the rear. A single turn might spell total disaster for a player!

To prevent this, my guess, is that people instituted the "no melee in column" rule to prevent people from marching along roads to really exploit a gap made during the turn. You might set up column infantry units 8 hexes away from the enemy behind a hill along a road, then march down the road and melee mercilessly in column. You'd probably never see it coming.
......
Does melee in column really help someone all that much in phased play vs. turn play? Depends who you ask. :mrgreen:


No melee in column actually goes back to the Battleground days.
I had been a club member for about a year although I had been playing the BG ACW games hot seat with a local gamer for about 5 years and was pretty good at the yanks.
I had never lost a game of the full battle of Shiloh while Gen. Jim Thomas had won several as a reb.
He challenged anyone to beat him and I took him up on it, the only game of the full battle I have ever lost at BG Shiloh.
He moved his rebs in column around the fixed yank units having memorized their positions, surrounded, isolated, meleed in column and eliminated them.
Lost nearly all of the fixed units and refused to play a game without the no melee in column house rule after that.

Originally most players allowed Column Melee in Towns in BG but when the HPS system came out that stopped because of the poor defensive fire, no automatic Morale checks and using road movement.
In BG playing in phases with full defensive fire and automatic Morale Check if hit often results in phasing player's units getting D'd.
This prevented them from being able to melee and provided the historical advantage to the defense.

In the early HPS Turn Mode the poor chance of Opportunity Fire and the 50% effect along with the poor chance of a Morale Check being made produced a Blitzkrieg situation.
It gave the advantage to the attacker, especially when combined with the higher Morale Rating given the rebs to make up for the lack of a good command control system.

The current WDS Turn Mode works ok for me with the Limited Column Melee House rule I use.
The use of the separate Melee Phase and Full Melee Defensive Fire along with improvements to the code have reduced the advantage for the attacker.
The one thing lacking IMHO is a good Command Control system where how far units can move is dependent upon the ability of the officers.
A system like this was used in the old SSI ACW games, the rebels often moved full Movement Allowance while the Yank often got 3/4 or 1/2 movement.
I found it worked so well I mentioned it to my miniature group and we adopted a similar system for our miniature games.

_________________
Gen. Ken Miller

Image

The McKeesport Union Guard

1/1/I
AotP


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Fri Oct 17, 2025 10:37 am 
Offline

Joined: Tue Nov 11, 2003 9:52 am
Posts: 1342
Blake wrote:
Column Melee House Rules

If I had to guess, and this might be confirmed by some old timers like Ned Simms, DW Mallory, or Mark Nelms, but I bet that when the HPS version of the games was released that many people played the game in Turns. This is poorly named, I know! But in "Turns" each player moves, fires, and melees all in the same turn. You can move, melee, fire, move, melee, fire, fire, melee, move, fire... and so on as long as you have Movement Points and units available. This allowed people the opportunity to utilize blitz tactics. They could then melee back a few units and punch a hole in the enemy line. Then, in the same turn, move more units into the breech and melee some more to widen the hole. Then, if they were really good, they would send cavalry riding through the hole to capture generals, wagons, and artillery in the rear. A single turn might spell total disaster for a player!

To prevent this, my guess, is that people instituted the "no melee in column" rule to prevent people from marching along roads to really exploit a gap made during the turn. You might set up column infantry units 8 hexes away from the enemy behind a hill along a road, then march down the road and melee mercilessly in column. You'd probably never see it coming.

Playing in "Phases" has now become the norm to the point where hardly anyone plays or remembers using "Turn" based play. The no melee in column rule remains a ephemeral rule from the old days which we often mention out of habit or a belief that it is an ordained fact you must use it.

Does melee in column really help someone all that much in phased play vs. turn play? Depends who you ask. :mrgreen:


This has been discussed in the Tavern awhile back. The argument then concerned the difference between a road column and an attack column like you find in napoleonic games.

Kelly and I play phased and allow attack in column. The problem with attacking in column in phased play is that you receive at least one round of full strength defensive fire with bonus unless you happen to be attacking a flank or rear. If the unit you are attacking doesn't rout you receive another round of offensive fire at range 1 with bonus. Finally you receive another round of defensive fire if you didn't rout. Point being it is a dangerous tactic for the attacker to use. It is seldom osed in our games and even less since the change where you can see enemy units appear as you move.

_________________
MG Mike Mihalik
Forrest's Cavalry Corps
AoWest/CSA


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 26 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2

All times are UTC - 5 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 26 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group