ACWGC Forums

Do you think that Congress will or would eventually order the removal of Confederate monuments from National Battlefield Parks?

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General Jos. C. Meyer, ACWGC
Union Army Chief of Staff
Commander, Army of the Shenandoah
Commander, Army of the Tennessee
(2011-2014 UA CoA/GinC)

Unlikely, or at least I hope it happens when I am food for worms.

If monuments cannot be placed there, which is an absolutely appropriate place, then we've turned in an ISIS/Taliban/Soviet society that looks to destroy the past and the legacy, good or bad, of those who came before us.

As someone that used to live in Baltimore a few blocks away from these monuments, it was a sad day for the removal of the 4 confederate statues (really only 3, Chief Justice Taney always gets thrown in the group, even though he was a Union loyalist). The mayor got it right by moving swiftly (some might have been destroyed by locals and the morale of the police force is at an all time low), but no one really knows their fate. There are plenty of museums in Baltimore that could house them/display them, but she seems adamant to get them out of the city.

The Women's Memorial was one of the first Civil War monuments (Union or Confederate) that honored the crucial role that women played in the war. The monument to the Confederate men was fairly benign, but a great piece of architecture. The Lee-Jackson statue is the first double equestrian statue built in the US (learned about the process of making statues this spring in Europe), AND was made by a women in the mid 20th Century. The Taney statue could be moved to one of his residences or Dickinson College.

Statues have been moved for decades usually without fanfare/issues, but 1) this is history and 2) these are architectural masterpieces. We should be erecting monuments for new people, not destroying the foundation of those before us.

More people should know about Alexandre Lenoir. On 1 August 1793, the French National Convention decreed that the tombs of "former kings" should be destroyed. Alexandre Lenoir witnessed the destruction of the royal tombs, with the bones thrown into a ditch. He struggled against revolutionary vandalism and managed to save statues and loot which he stored at the couvent des Petits-Augustins. Today, it is now the Musée national des Monuments Français, one of the more famous museums in Paris.

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BG Justin Kowal
5th Brigade, Hindman’s Division (3rd Division)
Stewart's Corps (2nd Corps)
Army of the West (AotW)

I am hoping that what I'm posting is true because the American Civil War was fought American brother against American brother but I haven't verified the authenticity of what I'm reading:

Confederate soldiers, sailors and marines in the Civil War were made U.S. veterans by an act of Congress in 1957. U.S. Public Law 85-425 Sec. 410 approved 23 May 1958.

This made all Confederate army, navy and marine veterans equal to U.S. veterans. Additionally, under U.S. Public Law 810, approved by the 17th Congress on 26 February, 1929 the War Department was directed to erect headstones and recognize Confederate grave sites as U.S. grave sites.

In essence, when you remove a Confederate statue, monument or headstone, you are in fact removing a statue, monument or headstone of a United States veteran...... If true, that doesn't stop parks from removing statues but it may require some legal action to get it done across the board.

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But, just like Ronald Reagan said: "If fascism ever comes to America ... it will come in the name of liberalism". We all butcher history, most unintentionally but some intentionally. Just in this club, ever seen anyone change their mind on what started the American Civil War - slavery or states rights? Once your mind is made up, it appears to be almost unchangeable. The winners write the history books.

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Gen Ned Simms
3/XVI Corps/AotT
Blood 'n Guts hisself, a land lovin' pirate. Show me some arty tubes and we'll charge 'em.
VMI Class of '00

Black Lives Matter Activists Float Criminalization of Confederate Imagery

http://www.lifezette.com/polizette/black-lives-matter-activists-float-criminalization-of-confederate-imagery/


Illegal to outlaw? Let us hope it remains so.

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Civil War Battles Lead Programmer, https://wargameds.com
Panzer Battles & Panzer Campaigns Lead Programmer, https://wargameds.com
Campaign Series Lead Programmer, https://cslegion.com

If General Simms is correct the legal aspect of removing stuff is interesting and I do hope that the legal procedures are followed, acting illegal would be a serious problem and would give certain extreme faction an excuse to act violently.

Some time back I had a small exchanged and was pointed to the removal of a statue that was raised to remember a small revolt somewhere in the South in the 1870's I think, can't really remember what it was about but I checked the statue out and reading the inscription made it clear by what type of persons and it what intention it was raised, what led me to my opinion that the removal was good especially for the South.

But I think a general removal of all Confederate items, from monuments to flags, is a total overreaction especially on battlegrounds.
In general every monument should be thoroughly checked to see if it is worth to be kept, not only from the perspective of being an architectural piece worth keeping but from the perspective if the person/incident, the ones who raised it, and the intention behind it are compatible with the USA of today.
And regarding battlegrounds, it's not to understand that on WW2 battlegrounds often both sides are remembered while in a conflict of Brother vs. Brother one side should be ignored or even completely "deleted", that is why on such ground monuments should be more than carefully judged and a removal should only by considered if being judged as totally incompatible with the true intention of a park build to remember a battle in an honorably and decent way.

Same counts for the various Confederate flags, if those flags are flying because of a dishonorable intention I do not see why they should be left flying. As a tool of remembrance of one side in a battle I do not see a problem to keep them.

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Lieutenant General Christian Hecht
Commander I Corps, Army of the Potomac

. . . and what about the possibility of censorship of all those beautiful Don Troiani et al paintings and prints that lionized the Confederacy? Are they, too, to be subject to a historical re-write?

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General Jos. C. Meyer, ACWGC
Union Army Chief of Staff
Commander, Army of the Shenandoah
Commander, Army of the Tennessee
(2011-2014 UA CoA/GinC)

Very much a conundrum!!

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General Ernie Sands
President ACWGC -Sept 2015- Dec 2020
7th Brigade, 1st Division, XVI Corps, AoT
ACWGC Records Site Admin

"If you do not know where you are going, any road will take you there."

It is getting harder and harder to keep my temper under the onslaught of holier-than-thou attitudes from flaming progressive liberals. Nuff said.

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Your Obedient Servant,
Lt Gen Dwight McBride
Ist Division/1st Brigade
V Corps/AOP/USA

Excellent discussion points, gentlemen.

I just feel like we're losing a bit of Americana over the past couple years. What we're now seeing is monuments to Columbus, religious leaders, police commissioners, etc too being physically attacked by fringe elements that get lots of attention and credit in the mainstream media. I was very impressed by what the president said about "where does it stop? Washington? Jefferson?"

Some cities have been very gentlemanly about some of these Civil War monuments - i.e. deeding them to museums, moving them to cemeteries, etc. However, removing them in the middle of the night, as Baltimore and San Antonio recently have done, without a destination in mind is sad.

I work pretty regularly with Canadians, Brits, Aussies, etc and they tend to laugh at this controversy in the US. Outside of the Palace of Westminster is a statue of Oliver Cromwell (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statue_of ... estminster), who overthrew the monarchy and had King Charles I executed. They seem to have a better grasp of history over in those places than in our Facebook/Twitter/Instagram American culture.

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BG Justin Kowal
5th Brigade, Hindman’s Division (3rd Division)
Stewart's Corps (2nd Corps)
Army of the West (AotW)

Yes, well I guess Weinstein doesn't get his statue now does he! Jane Fonda will make sure of THAT

Honestly .. my feeling about the statues .. if its a civic item .. then the community can vote to remove it. If its on someone's private property - hands off. If its on a state campus .. then an amendment can go on the ballot.

I can see why some black person might get more than a little ticked at a statue of (KKK) Nathan Bedford Forrest staring them in the face as they walk or drive through town. To me the KKK is like Facism and that would be like having a statue of Himmler near a Jewish community in Chicago. It would bother me too.

Its the WAY that this all coming about. White nationalists coming to other towns. Etc.

The way that protests are going now you almost have to do what they did in Seattle .. .block off the counter protesters to ensure public safety. Let the one side have their say .. then allow the other side to come in and have theirs.

My liberal friend disagreed with me. All I had to say was "Then enjoy more Charllottesvilles!"

People cannot be trusted to "peacefully assemble" these days. Its the infiltration of the ranks that is the problem.

Not much said anymore about how nicely the Tea Party assemblies were handled. Contrast that with your average White Supremacist or Black Lives Matter meeting.

I do not believe that this country was meant just for white people. And neither did the majority of the Founders. They knew that the natives had helped us during the first few years of the colonies.

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Colonel Bill Peters
5th Brig, 2nd Div
I Corps, AoP, USA

Guess we are watching the outcome of this post happen right now.

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Colonel Jason "Skeedaddle" Campbell
The Mahoning 4th Brigade
3rd Division
2nd Corp
AoT
"Let's fill up our canteens, boys. Some of us will be in hell before nightfall and we'll need the water"

I live in Yankeedom and God help me if I open my mouth to defend my southern heritage. Living in the bluest of blue states (Connecticut) it is downright appalling to hear their ignorance spewed towards US History in general and CSA history in particular. I always concede the fact that the basis of the CSA was the defense of slavery and white supremacy. No argument. A monument erected to proclaim such ideals should not be tolerated. But in ALL the monuments I have even seen I have yet to see one proclaiming white supremacy or defending slavery. Others argue that even having CSA on the monument then is enough to imply the condoning of these things and thus they are offensive to others. This inevitably leads me to the slippery slope argument that if we remove monuments for offending any subset of people than we would have no monuments left. Many people are fine with this. "Knock them all down!" they claim. At that point you really can't continue the talk.

I have tried looking at it from the viewpoint of a person of color and while I sympathize and understand their anger and frustration I have to state that tearing down monuments is probably the most ineffective way to fight racism I have ever heard of. God I hate to say this but it almost makes me hear the old post-Civil War saying, "bottom rail on top this time" when I see the rioting and the destruction going unchecked in cities. They would do well to remember that, in the end, the cause of racial justice was eventually exhausted, the bloody shirt was put away, and the bottom rail returned to the top of the fence after a time. Why in hell we can't just be equals, discuss things rationally, and find ways to compromise, understand, and promote core American values is beyond me. The National Park Service did an EXEMPLARY job of making it a point to address slavery's evils at each battlefield and historical Civil War site. Rather than trying to make the battlefields just tell ONE story they allowed them to tell all stories from multiple angles. Maybe the monuments are outdated and need to be removed (in a safe and orderly way) but lets have a real discussion about their destination, their story, and their preservation as well before we just go blow things up. I am asking way too much though in 2020.

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Gen. Blake Strickler
Confederate Chief of the Armies
El Presidente 2010 - 2012

As we witness a transformation of opinion regarding monuments to "our heritage" I ask that you consider, for example, what Robert E. Lee said four months after he surrendered. You may find reason to monumentalize him for his reason for accepting the college presidency of what was then Washington College, now Washington and Lee University. He said, in an 1865 letter to his wife: "Life is indeed gliding away and I have nothing good to show for mine that is past. I pray I may be spared to accomplish something for the benefit of mankind and the honour of God." He also said it was time for the uniforms and flags to be put away and asked that none be displayed at his funeral.
I have little issue with monuments placed at battlefields to commemorate where action took place and I hope they are never removed, but Monument Avenue in Richmond (for example) was created to be a monument to white power and its time has come. Bottom line is, if you want to honor Lee, put him standing in a W&L quad wearing university robes handing out a baccalaureate, not on a horse defending his state's right to keep and enslave humans. That's my heritage.

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Lt. Gen. Steve Sober, ACWGC
UA Cabinet Secretary
1/4/V AotP

Maybe we should listen more to the dead then to those that are alive and think they know exactly what the dead wanted.

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Lieutenant General Christian Hecht
Commander I Corps, Army of the Potomac

This was off topic so I deleted it.

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Lt. Gen. Steve Sober, ACWGC
UA Cabinet Secretary
1/4/V AotP