American Civil War Game Club (ACWGC)

I've been reviewing the above-reference post from General Hecht found under 'Opponent Finder' 'John Tiller and HPS Campaign Games'.

While I am not thrilled about having the extra e-mails associated with 'Manual Defensive Fire' option and would prefer to start with Turn Based and 'Proportional Opportunity Fire' options engaged, and the original post was written in 2018 before 'Extreme Fog of War' was introduced, which I like, otherwise these look like a set of options likely to produce a fairly historically accurate game.

Anyone know of any opponents who use this or would like to try this? Even as maneuvers with other members of VMI or CSA?

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Col. Mike Hemer, 7th Brigade
1st (Buckner's) Division
II (Stewart's) Corps,
Army of Tennessee

It's not my desired method of play but I understand that there are a number of Club members who also prefer Manual Defensive Fire and other Optional Rules suitable for Phased Play. Phased Play is simply too time consuming for me and I have had enough trouble with Yankees who are too slow in returning files even for Turn-based Play.

I'm sure that if you post in the opponent Finder Forum (http://wargame.ch/board/acwgc/viewforum.php?f=50) and describe the Optional Rules you want to play with, and which JTS titles you have, you should find others who are interested.

Good luck in finding someone [although I don't think you'll need it].

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Paul Swanson
Lieutenant-General
First Division
First Corps
Army of Northern Virginia

What the heck?!

Indeed I haven't tried the new Extreme Fog of War more to give a recommendation, but it looks promising even if some things can be a bit strange like fields. Hiding in corn field, sure, hiding in potato field, well even the youngest Rebel couldn't hid in there.
But go for it, more FoW is good as we usually have to many informations anyway.

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Lieutenant General Christian Hecht
Commander I Corps, Army of the Potomac

"Where to stop? I don't know. At Hell, I expect."

I prefer the phase method that allows for a Fire/Movement combined phase and a seperate melee phase. These are all completed in one exchage and sent like a 'turn'. Forgive me for not knowing what exactly is checked as Im not staring at it right now, but it works for me.

I prefer fog of war checked but I do not check Extreme Fog of War. My reasoning, especially as a Rebel (where most of these battles are fought in southern territory), Generals had cartographers and locals willing to explain log roads and hills and would often have maps of areas. I like to be able to click on the a hex and know what I would be able to see from that vantage point, and historically I think it would be able to play out that way. If you show me a map, I can tell you that 'this ridge' would give me a good glassing point and what I will be able to see from it. I think Ex. Fog of war takes that away, and I prefer to play without it.

Thanks for glancing over my thoughts, good day Gents!

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Lt. Colonel JJ Jansen
3rd Calvary Brigade, 4th Calvary Division
Army of Tennessee
CSA

Well just like a General back then we can already see that high ground like a ridge will provide is with a wide field of fire, that is obvious from the map alone. But I doubt a General would be able to see any smaller rock formation or any other obstacle on such maps that may block a hex here or there. For this a personal observation was necessary, and we can & should do the same in our games. A leader can advance a bit and inspect the position he had intended to take, and if he sees that there are some obstacles he can make some last minutes adjustments to the position. Overall no problem nor unrealistic in my opinion.

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Lieutenant General Christian Hecht
Commander I Corps, Army of the Potomac

"Where to stop? I don't know. At Hell, I expect."

Following up and supporting what General Hecht says: Another advantage of Extreme Fog of War is that it more accurately reflects there is no time to do the more extensive recon that normal Fog of War allows you to do. Each turn is only 20 minutes. You can get a reasonable idea what is ahead by looking at the terrain, but there is simply not enough time to (1) send someone forward to look at every detail of where you are going, (2) have them come back and report what they saw (or what could be seen) and then (3) move your unit in response to that report, all in 20 minutes time. You do your best with the terrain maps (which is already more than they could possibly have had in the 1860s), and if you are sighted or exposed to fire after doing so, such are the fortunes of war. The additional inability to have any idea how big a unit is when larger 100 men in non-clear terrain is another advantage of Extreme Fog of War. IMHO

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Col. Mike Hemer, 7th Brigade
1st (Buckner's) Division
II (Stewart's) Corps,
Army of Tennessee

I'd like to advise caution regarding Extreme Fog of War in regards to terrain. Although you and your opponent may agree to have Extreme Fog of War as one of your selected Optional Rules there is nothing to stop your opponent from opening up the scenario as a separate game and scouting around as much, and as often, as he likes. The knowledge gained can then be used to select useful vantage points. I understand that other terrain aspects such as fences and walls are still able to be determined under Extreme Fog of War.
Other aspects of Extreme Fog of War should not be affected by such a thing [unless you are unlucky enough to be playing a cheat (who replays moves or parts thereof to gain an unfair advantage)].

Also, in JTS scenarios your opponent can also know where your forces are at the start and when, and where, others arrive due to remembered knowledge (having played that scenario before) or by opening that scenario as a separate game. I usually tell my opponent when I have played a scenario before our battle. For example, I have just begun my third battle of the historical Chickamauga (Chickamauga 039) and I told my opponent I had played it twice before (one Draw, one Minor Victory). Hopefully, it'll be 'third time lukcy' will do it for me and I can finally get a Major Victory.

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Paul Swanson
Lieutenant-General
First Division
First Corps
Army of Northern Virginia

If you distrust your opponent you should not play him at all. Effectively that is cheating for me.



I think the fact that there are soooooooooooooooooooooooooo many scenario makes me doubt that one will remember exactly where & when the enemy shows, sure there is a general idea of what will happen just like everyone knows that the Prussians show up in Waterloo but the exact turn & hex is surely only memorized by very very few club members.
High age average in the club might also help.

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Lieutenant General Christian Hecht
Commander I Corps, Army of the Potomac

"Where to stop? I don't know. At Hell, I expect."

Fortunately, I believe that few in the Club lower themselves to cheating: I just felt I needed to issue a warning about it in that instance. I believe I have only encountered such a thing twice. Once in a game where my opponent seemed too perfect in predicting my every movement in a battle where there were large areas of forest (not Chickamauga). This was done despite the complete absence of skirmishers in those areas where it occurred, leaving his units to apply maximum force to me at just the right places [a couple of skirmishers were discovered in some more obscure areas].
The other time I was inadvertently sent a file which showed unit movements that were different to those in the 'official' file that was then sent to me. The first file involved moves that were clearly a scouting operation (given the hexes they moved to and the way they moved in the replay) whereas the 'official' file showed different moves by the same units. Clearly, they had replayed the move (i.e. cheated).
I have never played against any of these people again and have no intention of ever doing so.

I'm no spring chicken but fortunately my memory is still quite good. Good victories, and heavy defeats, are well remembered when I'm on the same battlefield (mediocre battles are not so well remembered). Also, after playing the same opponent a number of times, you can get to understand their style which can be useful. Unavoidably, if they are any good, they can get to understand my style so I try to change things somewhat to give me a bit of an advantage - although it doesn't always work.

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Paul Swanson
Lieutenant-General
First Division
First Corps
Army of Northern Virginia

An update regarding FoW and opponents using a gamey tactic of opening another file to selecting useful vantage points and seeing hexes observed from certain positions.

In WDS v4 games it is no longer possible to select a vacant hex and observe the visible hexes from that position, whether you have selected FoW, Extreme FoW or 'no fog' at all. In WDS v4 you can only observe visible hexes from a hex that has a unit (not supply) in it.
In regards specifically to supply wagons, when you select them there are no hexes visible on the map. However, I do believe (based on the evidence of the only game I have played with WDS v4) that a supply wagon can still observe and spot enemy units that appear within their visible range, even though you can not physically see which hexes are visible to it.

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Paul Swanson
Lieutenant-General
First Division
First Corps
Army of Northern Virginia

So basically, WDS v4 forces everyone to use Extreme FoW whether they want to or not?

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Brigadier General Denny Holt
5th Bde, 2nd Div, II Corps
Army of Northern Virginia

Denny

My understanding is there is a bug which prevents the use of the non-EFOW aspects of visibility that will be fixed in the first round of WDS updates.

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Walter A. Dortch
Commanding -/4/V AotP
UA Cabinet Secretary
UA Operations Officer
UA Wolverine Team Leader

There seems to be a small difference in WDS v4 when you select FoW as opposed to Extreme FoW. In FoW it is as I described earlier except there is an increased chance of seeing more details (e.g.in a current WDS Campaign Antietam game I could see (at seven hexes [Visibility=40 hexes]) that the enemy had a battery of 6 guns, an infantry unit of 4XX and an unknown leader. However, at 17 hexes a limbered enemy battery shows as X guns.

In Extreme FoW you can not select any unit to observe visible hexes from that position (whereas in FoW you can select either your units or enemy units [not supply] to observe visible hexes from that location). I suspect [unconfirmed] that there may also be more difficulty in identifying units for Extreme FoW (e.g. in the example above I would think in Extreme FoW I would not be able to identify that the battery at seven hexes had 6 guns - it would probably show as X guns).

So, there are some differences between FoW and Extreme FoW in WDS v4. The key difference being that in FoW you can select an enemy unit (not supply) and see what they can see whereas in Extreme FoW you can only select hexes where you have your units.

As for an update to 'fix' this issue (which doesn't align the the discussion on sighting in the new manual) I will not be holding my breath. It will probably be many months away. I understand that updating computer programs is a lot of work. Discussions with computer boffins during my working life revealed that changing one line of code can often have an unexpected consequence on other parts of the program - which is probably how this FoW issue arose in the first place.

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Paul Swanson
Lieutenant-General
First Division
First Corps
Army of Northern Virginia

Here's the info I have:

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Hello Scott,

No, not meant to be the default. We'll adjust for the next update...for now you just have to toggle visible hex option. It works properly with EFOW selected however.

Regards,
Rich



Hi Rich,

I am having the same technical glitch with the new 4.00 ACW games that Larry Mills experienced and posted on Facebook back on November 23: "Extreme Fog of War. I am turning that option off in the optional rules, but when I play a scenario in Campaigns Shiloh or Gettysburg and I click on an empty hex and check visibility its as if it is a night turn. All hexes are dark. Is this the new default?"

This same problem seems to effect all the ACW titles that I've updated. I've attached game files from Antietam and Shenandoah as examples. Can you verify and/or fix?

Thanks,
Scott Eichelberger
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Walter A. Dortch
Commanding -/4/V AotP
UA Cabinet Secretary
UA Operations Officer
UA Wolverine Team Leader