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 Post subject: Disorder & A/I
PostPosted: Tue May 31, 2005 12:15 pm 
I've not scaned through the entire manual yet but can I have some clarification on units moving through each other and disorder in clear terrain.

Cavalry and Infantry in same hex = disorder automatic for both

Infantry & Infantry in same hex (in different formations) = automatic disorder for both

Cavalry & skirmishers in same hex = skirmishers disorder
Though of cavalry or sirmishers are of a certain size this also disorders the cavalry?

CORRECT?

Also, been pretty disappointed with the A/I so far, what is the best option to use with A/I, conservative or reckless? Didn't seem to make any difference at all on the first secanrio of the campaign at scenario or is in sleep mode.

Andrew


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PostPosted: Tue May 31, 2005 12:19 pm 
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Didn't seem to make any difference at all on the first secanrio of the campaign at scenario or is in sleep mode.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Sorry that should read -

Didn't seem to make any difference at all on the first secanrio of the campaign. In fact, I assume the A/I doesn't exist in this scenario or is in sleep mode.


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PostPosted: Tue May 31, 2005 12:52 pm 
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Joined: Fri May 25, 2001 1:53 pm
Posts: 283
Location: United Kingdom
Andrew

Turn off AI altogether, play against a human opponent as PBEM game, or use the two-player hotseat function to play against yourself. Sorry that's not supposed to read like you are not a human opponent, but you know what I mean.

IMHO the AI is not worth the bother of playing against.

All your observations about disordering units due to incompatible stacking are correct. Th ecavalry are disordered by skirmishers when the number of skirmishers in the hex exceeds 225 (this is Battleground games, I don't know the figure for HPS games). This is the same level at which the skirmishers lose their benefit for being skirmishers, ie reduced casualties, harder to hit etc.

Mark
VII Corps


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PostPosted: Tue May 31, 2005 6:18 pm 
Thanks Mark


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 01, 2005 3:03 am 
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Posts: 312
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Mark, I was under the impression that skirmishers had to exceed 250 men to count as a regular unit. I may well (more than likely [;)] ) be wrong though.

While we're on the subject, could someone clarify what happens when cavalry melee a unit across a hedge/wall etc. I thought that they would be disordered so would have they strength halved, although I've also been told that their strength stays as normal, but they lose the charge bonus. Which is true... and how do heavies/ lancer modifiers factor into this scenario.

Cheers,

<font color="orange">Majoor Peter Robinson
Commander I Corps
[url="http://www.geocities.com/militaireacademie"]Koninklijke Militaire Academie[/url] Adjutant
3rd (Prince of Wales's) Dragoon Guards</font id="orange">


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 01, 2005 3:13 am 
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Posts: 229
Location: USA
I've found that past the first several turns, the AI is nearly non-existent. Those first few turns against the AI is where you begin to set things up and lay out your plan. I find that whether against the AI or a human, it is pretty much the same experience. Its lots of fun actually.

Beyond that, playing against the AI is just (tactical) practice for playing against a human.

Lieutenant Rick Motko
1er Bataillon, 33° Régiment d'Infanterie de Ligne
2eme Brigade, 11eme division
IIIe corps, Armée du Nord


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 01, 2005 3:28 am 
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by SansSouci</i>
While we're on the subject, could someone clarify what happens when cavalry melee a unit across a hedge/wall etc. <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

It is my understanding that they are disordered but still charging (at least I have never noticed that they would lose the label "charging" in the unit box).

Since the charge bonus is 200 per cent. while the penalty for a disrupted attack is 50 per cent. (isn't it? I am writing from work), charging disrupted cavalry is still 50 per cent. more effective (300 * 0.50 = 150) than non-charging cavalry in good order.

<center>Général de Division D.S. "Green Horse" Walter
Baron d'Empire, Duc des Pyramides
Commandant de la [url="http://home.arcor.de/dierk_Walter/NWC/3_VI_AdR_Home.htm"]3ème Division[/url], VIème Corps Bavarois, L'Armée du Rhin
Commandant l'Ecole de Mars, L'Armée du Rhin
Commandant de la Brigade de Tirailleurs de la Jeune Garde
Image</center>


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 01, 2005 6:22 am 
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Posts: 283
Location: United Kingdom
Gentlemen,

Sorry if this post sounds a little terse, I spent about an hour writing it when the computer I used locked up and it was back to square one[:(!]

Before I write, I point out that the easiest way to figure this stuff out is to open a game and move the units that you need to demonstrate the effect you want to see investigate. Don't think for a minute that I remember all this crap. Some of it I have in some extensive personal notes on the game, the rest, I just open up a game such as Hougoumont move the appropriate units and...oh yeah! That's what happens when you do xyz.

So here goes with cavalry charges.

Good order charging cavalry get a x3 strength bonus in melee against defending units. This bonus is negated if the defending units are all cavalry, infantry in square (unless another formed unit - i.e. non-skirmisher -is stacked with the square), or if the defending unit is behind a linear obstacle, (stream, embankment, wall, hedge etc).

So, even if the defending unit is a skirmisher, if it is behind a linear obstacle it can not be over-run by charging cavalry, and the cavalry do not gain their x3 strength multiplier when melee attacking them across the obstacle.

OK so far?

Next, the attacking unit is not disordered by melee attacking across a linear obstacle. It will be disordered by the melee attack, unless the attacking unit was a squadron or battalion and the defending unit was skirmishers of strength not greater than 225.

Not quite so easy to follow, I'll try again. All units are disordered by melee except against skirmishers of strength less than 250, (unless the attacking units are also skirmishers - in which case they are also disordered). The defending units are always disordered by the melee.

So what's useful from this? First, look at where your opponent has used skirmishers to defend behind linear obstacles, these are opportunities by melee attacking at these points, you have the chance to get cavalry, or infantry in line formation, across the obstacle without disorder. [Disordered if they move across them, not disordered if they melee a skirmisher across them - crazy, but true].

On the defensive, think twice about defending the line of the stream with skirmishers. Use battalions, or, hold back, make your opponent circumvent it with his cavalry and cross it in column at which point you move up your lines and horse batteries and let him have it [B)]

I digress. Back to charging cavalry.

If the cavalry are disordered during the charge, for example by crossing a linear obstacle before making contact with the enemy, first the extent of the charge will be greatly reduced. Next, subsequent melee will be conducted at a penalty of -50% strength due to disorder. But, if the defending units are in open terrain, the x3 strength bonus for charging still applies, in spite of the disorder.

Consider 160 lancers charge across a stream (disordered), into a clear hex, then melee attack a 100 man skirmish company behind a hedge, (negates charge strength bonus), actual attack strength of the cavalry is ...., that's right 300 - I did say they were lancers didn't I (+25% attack strength - same for heavies; other comment for lancers is that their strength is reduced by 10% when defending).

Next, what happens in subsequent melees for cavalry? Assuming they are not disordered during the charge, (ie cross no linear obstacle), the cavalry will not be disordered unless they enter obstructed terrain, i.e. village, rough, forest, marsh, orchard etc, (and why on earth do that?); they will remain in good order until they melee attack another formed unit (or stack of skirmishers of strength greater than 225), or the phase ends, at which point they are disordered due to having charged during the prior phase.

OK. So, if the cavalry make a good order charge up to a hedge, behind which is a 100 man skirmish company, melee attack and win without a charge bonus, they can now attack an adjacent unit. The cavalry remain in good order, (no disorder for attack across the hedge, no disorder for melee by formed unit against skirmisher of strength less than 250), so no penalty in next melee. If the target is in open terrain and not behind a linear obstacle, the charge bonus will now apply as well.

In this way, cavalry can use melee to cross a stream in good order and continue to attack units that thought they were secure beyond the stream. Cavalry can cross a hedge and melee a defensive line of skirmishers, incurring little fatigue and no disorder until the end of the charge.

Finally, on cavalry charges, what happens if you charge and / or melee into obstructed terrain. Charging into obstructed terrain disorders your cavalry, any subsequent melee is conducted at -50% strength. Attacking units in obstructed terrain negates the charge bonus. So, charge into a village, then attack a unit in the next village hex, the attack is performed with no charge bonus and the 50% strength penalty. So, who in their right mind would do that ???... someone going for that 3,000,000 point objective hex, that's who. [This is one of my pet hates about objective hexes. No-one in their right mind would use the cavalry in this way for any other hex on the map, but because the objective hexes tend to carry such a high value, such non-sensical, absurd moves become cost effective in terms of victory points - I know: rant, rant, rant[:(!][:(!] But it is farcical].


That's enough of the cavalry charging.

While I have your attention, I may as well go onto unit quality.

Units of high quality (6+) gain a bonus in melee, whether attacking or defending, providing all units are of high quality. Add a normal quality (3 to 5) unit to the combat, even if only a normal quality 25 man skirmish company added to a combat 1,000 man, quality 7 battalion, these units will melee as though all were normal quality.

Worse yet, if the 25 man skirmish company had been of low quality (2 or lower), all units, including the quality 7 battalion will fight with the low quality penalty. So, stacking that disordered, 25 man, fatigue 9, Dutch-Belgian skirmish company with the 1,000 man quality 7 foot guards, could really bugger-up someones day[;)]

This quality issue is also useful for cavalry charges. A high quality cavalry regiment that attacks a low quality battalion with an attack ratio of 2:1 and a bonus of +2 will win 5 times in 6. Make the same attack with the addition of a second regiment of this time normal quality cavalry, the odds become 4:1 with a bonus of +1, in this case, the cavalry are assurred of victory, but is it worth the committment of a second regiment of cavalry? Food for thought!

So, all I can say is, open those games and experiment

Regards

Mark
VII Corps


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 01, 2005 7:13 am 
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Location: Moscow, Russia
Bravo, Mark! This post should be made an article in the Ecole du Mars or whatever it's called[8)]

<center>Image</center>
<center><b>Eyo Imperatorskogo Velichestva Leib-Kirassirskogo polku
Polkovnik Anton Kosyanenko</b></center>


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 01, 2005 12:55 pm 
Good post.

[q]<b>Worse yet, if the 25 man skirmish company had been of low quality (2 or lower), all units, including the quality 7 battalion will fight with the low quality penalty. So, stacking that disordered, 25 man, fatigue 9, Dutch-Belgian skirmish company with the 1,000 man quality 7 foot guards, could really bugger-up someones day</b>[/q]

And the reverse is true as well. Adding a single higher quality unit to a stack of low quality (E or less)units removes the entire low quality melee penalty.

So add one good fusilier unit to all those Prussian LW when charging to remove the low quality melee penalty.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 01, 2005 5:24 pm 
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Jagger</i>
[q]<b>Worse yet, if the 25 man skirmish company had been of low quality (2 or lower), all units, including the quality 7 battalion will fight with the low quality penalty. So, stacking that disordered, 25 man, fatigue 9, Dutch-Belgian skirmish company with the 1,000 man quality 7 foot guards, could really bugger-up someones day</b>[/q]

And the reverse is true as well. Adding a single higher quality unit to a stack of low quality (E or less)units removes the entire low quality melee penalty.

So add one good fusilier unit to all those Prussian LW when charging to remove the low quality melee penalty.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Actually these two statements are contradictory. Only one of them can be true. Either the highest quality unit counts, or the lowest quality one.

I believe the former statement refers to the BG games, the latter to the HPS, where the manual says:

"If the unit of lowest Quality on a given side has Quality of A or more, then that side receives a 20% bonus. If the unit of highest Quality on a given side has Quality of E or less, then that side receives a 20% penalty."

<center>Général de Division D.S. "Green Horse" Walter
Baron d'Empire, Duc des Pyramides
Commandant de la [url="http://home.arcor.de/dierk_Walter/NWC/3_VI_AdR_Home.htm"]3ème Division[/url], VIème Corps Bavarois, L'Armée du Rhin
Commandant l'Ecole de Mars, L'Armée du Rhin
Commandant de la Brigade de Tirailleurs de la Jeune Garde
Image</center>


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 01, 2005 9:46 pm 
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Posts: 283
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Gentlemen

My apologies, my original post was not clear. I usually state that my comments relate only to the Battleground series and to ask elsewhere about the HPS series as I know little about that game engine. On this occasion I omitted to include that statement.

So, to clarify, all of the observations in my earlier post relate to the Battleground series. In these games, the lower quality prevails. A high quality unit with a low quality unit, irrespective of size of the units, always behaves as though all were low quality (assuming of course all are involved in the melee - when attacking, just leave one of the units out of the melee).

Sorry for any confusion

Mark
VII Corps


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