Napoleonic Wargame Club (NWC)

If it ain't fixed, don't broke it.[:D]

<b><font color="gold">Ernie Sands
GdD,1e Brig,1eme Div,VI Corps,AdR
President, Colonial Campaign Club
</b></font id="gold">

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Gary McClellan</i>
<br />I see the basis of your idea, and if we were starting the club from scratch, I think there would be more than a bit of merit to it. That said though, I don't see it as being realistic to go back into the old records and redo everything from moment one.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Redo everything from moment one should not be totally unrealistic. If we introduce new counting system it is the rank table that needs to be migrated first. Once we have it, it should be possible to make good estimation (based on player's rank and score) for his new figures. So, we shell interpolate for new score rather then calculate it according to every single game in the past (which would be unrealistic indeed)


<font color="limegreen"><i>
Colonel [url="nihad.rizvanovic@zg.htnet.hr"]Nihad Rizvanovic[/url]
L'Armée du Rhin
VII Saxon Corps

<font color="beige"><i>The only true conquests, and those which awaken no regrets,
are the conquests obtained over ignorance</i></font id="beige">

http://free-zg.t-com.hr/nixon/

</i></font id="limegreen">

Two observations:
1) If there is serious consideration of changing the points, then rather than applying the Army Size/Turn Length as a modifier, why not just set certain values for each of the Talonsoft/HPS published scenarios, i.e. BG Waterloo is worth 50 pts for a whupping the pants off the loser, 35 pt for a marginal win, 20 for a draw, 10 pts for a marginal loss, 5 pts for getting your butt kicked.
2) The above being said, why do we need to change things at all? If you want more points faster, don't play big scenarios. You have that choice. After all, what is the objective here, to get promoted as fast as you can, or to have fun playing the games? Maybe I'm being nieve about it, but I don't really care about the rank. I joined so I could play the games against real people rather than the computer, and to communicate with people who have a common interest in Napoleonic History, something that seems to be rather scare in the everyday world, at least here in the U.S..



Ensign William Davis
23rd (Royal Welsh) Fusiliers
4th British Brigade
Anglo-Allied Army

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by WillieD13</i>
<br />If you want more points faster, don't play big scenarios. You have that choice. After all, what is the objective here, to get promoted as fast as you can, or to have fun playing the games? Maybe I'm being nieve about it, but I don't really care about the rank.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">


You'll still have opportunity to choose huge or small scenarios. New system would not change a bit there. And certainly it has no ambitions to change anyone feelings about the rank.

Proposal is here because some of us feels that time invested into gaming should be recognized at least in some way.



<font color="limegreen"><i>
Colonel [url="nihad.rizvanovic@zg.htnet.hr"]Nihad Rizvanovic[/url]
L'Armée du Rhin
VII Saxon Corps

<font color="beige"><i>The only true conquests, and those which awaken no regrets,
are the conquests obtained over ignorance</i></font id="beige">

http://free-zg.t-com.hr/nixon/

</i></font id="limegreen">

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by rizvanon</i>
You'll still have opportunity to choose huge or small scenarios. New system would not change a bit there. And certainly it has no ambitions to change anyone feelings about the rank.

Proposal is here because some of us feels that time invested into gaming should be recognized at least in some way.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Why? Nothing in this thread makes me feel that anything should be changed.
Any criteria we use for a point system might be able to be improved upon. We could have a system with double the points. What possible difference would that make. None, in my opinion. Double the points and halve the points for promotion. Double the points and double the points for promotion.

We change the points and it changes the promotion dynamic.

<font color="red">"time invested into gaming should be recognized at least in some way.</font id="red">

The current point system rewards game play, doesn't it? What would be the benefit of more points? What does this larger point total reward?

I don't think it would do any more to benefit the club than the present system.







<b><font color="gold">Ernie Sands
GdD,1e Brig,1eme Div,VI Corps,AdR
President, Colonial Campaign Club
</b></font id="gold">

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Ernie Sands</i>
I don't think it would do any more to benefit the club than the present system.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

I agree. Every system is in a way inadequate. And ours has the charme of simplicity.

Considering that for some mysterious reason a big turn that takes me an hour to do is then returned by my opponent half an hour later (how does he do that?? [}:)]), I should probably receive twice the number of points because it takes me twice as long to complete the same turn. [:D]

<center>
D.S. "Green Horse" Walter, Maréchal d'Empire
Duc des Pyramides, Comte de Normandie
Commandant la [url="http://home.arcor.de/dierk_Walter/NWC/3_VI_AdR_Home.htm"]3e Division Bavaroise[/url], L'Armée du Rhin
Commandant [url="http://home.arcor.de/dierk_Walter/NWC/EdM_start.htm"]L'Ecole de Mars[/url], L'Armée du Rhin
Commandant la Brigade de Grenadiers de la Moyenne Garde
</center>

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote"> Don't you guys think our time should be rewarded in some way? <blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Stop crunching numbers, it's a game and doesn't mean anything....the reward is playing the game with people instead of the AI.

General Paul Johnson
Comte de Calais, Duc de Fleurus
les Gendarmes d'Elites, Cavalerie de la Vieille Garde
Commander 23rd Light Cavalry Bde
Cavalry Division
VII Saxon Corps
Armee du Rhin

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by captain noble</i>

Stop crunching numbers, it's a game and doesn't mean anything

General Paul Johnson
Comte de Calais, Duc de Fleurus
les Gendarmes d'Elites, Cavalerie de la Vieille Garde
Commander 23rd Light Cavalry Bde
Cavalry Division
VII Saxon Corps
Armee du Rhin
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">


So it means nothing? And what does this nice pedigree beneath your name mean? And why is here? [:)]




<font color="limegreen"><i>
Colonel [url="nihad.rizvanovic@zg.htnet.hr"]Nihad Rizvanovic[/url]
L'Armée du Rhin
VII Saxon Corps

<font color="beige"><i>The only true conquests, and those which awaken no regrets,
are the conquests obtained over ignorance</i></font id="beige">

http://free-zg.t-com.hr/nixon/

</i></font id="limegreen">

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by rizvanon</i>
So it means nothing? And what does this nice pedigree beneath your name mean? And why is here? [:)]
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Yes, of course it means something. Otherwise we wouldn't have points, ranks, units, titles, honours and medals at all and could be a ladder club. [:)]

But it will always be arbitrary and inadequate, so it's best to keep it as simple as reasonably possible.

<center>
D.S. "Green Horse" Walter, Maréchal d'Empire
Duc des Pyramides, Comte de Normandie
Commandant la [url="http://home.arcor.de/dierk_Walter/NWC/3_VI_AdR_Home.htm"]3e Division Bavaroise[/url], L'Armée du Rhin
Commandant [url="http://home.arcor.de/dierk_Walter/NWC/EdM_start.htm"]L'Ecole de Mars[/url], L'Armée du Rhin
Commandant la Brigade de Grenadiers de la Moyenne Garde
</center>

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">So it means nothing? And what does this nice pedigree beneath your name mean? And why is here? <blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

It means I've been doing this longer than you.

General Paul Johnson
Comte de Calais, Duc de Fleurus
les Gendarmes d'Elites, Cavalerie de la Vieille Garde
Commander 23rd Light Cavalry Bde
Cavalry Division
VII Saxon Corps
Armee du Rhin

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by captain noble</i>
It means I've been doing this longer than you.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

I didn't mean to offend anyone. English is not my mother tonnage so it could sound somewhat crude and sometimes could produce such reaction. I deeply regret for that.

Paul, I know you're doing this longer then I do. Otherwise I would be your commanding officer instead of you're being mine [:)]

However, I still think that I have a point. If simplicity is a reason not to reform then we should dismiss any counting and keep the things really simple. It's enough to have list of names and e-mail addresses and not to go beyond that. But, at the same time, we witness the efforts for introduction of new auto system in the club. Post is active for some time now and I sincerely hope to see it in function as it will make things looks better.

Since we already invested into counting why not to make it more realistic at such low cost as one modifier could be.

It is usual for soldiers to advance through ranks faster if they had such a bad luck to serve in war times, and such a great luck to stay alive at the same time. Great campaigns were always something to remember. Skirmishes were not.




<font color="limegreen"><i>
Colonel [url="nihad.rizvanovic@zg.htnet.hr"]Nihad Rizvanovic[/url]
L'Armée du Rhin
VII Saxon Corps

<font color="beige"><i>The only true conquests, and those which awaken no regrets,
are the conquests obtained over ignorance</i></font id="beige">

http://free-zg.t-com.hr/nixon/

</i></font id="limegreen">

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">I didn't mean to offend anyone. English is not my mother tonnage so it could sound somewhat crude and sometimes could produce such reaction. I deeply regret for that.

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

I do not think you did, at all. You started a discussion and we discused it. I think what you said was clear, it is just that some do not agree that the system needs fixing.

It is always good to discuss things.[^]

<b><font color="gold">Ernie Sands
GdD,1e Brig,1eme Div,VI Corps,AdR
President, Colonial Campaign Club
</b></font id="gold">

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Ernie Sands</i>
I do not think you did, at all. You started a discussion and we discused it. I think what you said was clear, it is just that some do not agree that the system needs fixing.

It is always good to discuss things.[^]
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

I agree. There is a certain and understandable tendency in every association for the old salts to be slightly irritated if a newcomer proposes to change things they have grown used to. It can be misunderstood as disrespect for their achievements in the present system. That's more an emotional thing and doesn't mean a suggestion isn't worthwhile or clear.

<center>
D.S. "Green Horse" Walter, Maréchal d'Empire
Duc des Pyramides, Comte de Normandie
Commandant la [url="http://home.arcor.de/dierk_Walter/NWC/3_VI_AdR_Home.htm"]3e Division Bavaroise[/url], L'Armée du Rhin
Commandant [url="http://home.arcor.de/dierk_Walter/NWC/EdM_start.htm"]L'Ecole de Mars[/url], L'Armée du Rhin
Commandant la Brigade de Grenadiers de la Moyenne Garde
</center>

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by D.S. Walter</i>
There is a certain and understandable tendency in every association for the old salts to be slightly irritated if a newcomer proposes to change things they have grown used to. It can be misunderstood as disrespect for their achievements in the present system.
center]
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">


I joined a club three years ago so I could not really call myself newcomer. Before that, I spend three years in gaming and, despite to that, I got most valuable advices from Mark Eason who was my coaching officer. It is pretty much the same with any other player, French or allied, and there should be no place for any kind of disrespect in any kind or form. Everybody should having in mind people that organized and led a club years before our arrivals. Therefore, all of us sit at giant’s shoulders.

Therefore, I would really like this discussion to be moved one step further. I'm not really convinced that simplicity would be a nice argument to keep things as they are. It's just one modifier we are speaking about.



<font color="limegreen"><i>
Colonel [url="nihad.rizvanovic@zg.htnet.hr"]Nihad Rizvanovic[/url]
L'Armée du Rhin
VII Saxon Corps

<font color="beige"><i>The only true conquests, and those which awaken no regrets,
are the conquests obtained over ignorance</i></font id="beige">

http://free-zg.t-com.hr/nixon/

</i></font id="limegreen">

I am member of this site by only three months, but I'd like to tell You my opinion.
I think that ten turn in Borodino battle are quite different by ten turn of a little skrmishers action (while I move 100 batallion in the great battle, I can move five times 20 batallion in a litte one=in the first case I gain 10 points, in the second 50).
But obviously the casualties would be very different.
I would so propose this simple formula:
Points = Turns Complete + Victory Level + (Point Loss side 1+Point Loss side 2)/1000
In the same way it would be possible to change the count of Victory Point:
Victory Points = Victory Level + (Point Loss side 1-Point Loss side 2)/100
This way the player would be more interested to play a great battle and to gain a real great victory then to play a lot of little scenarios doing the more turn he can.
I'd like to know Your opinion.

Lieutenant Stefano Ostinelli
14ème Infanterie Regiment
2ème Brigade d'Infanterie
3ème Division
VIème Corps Bavarois
L'Armée du Rhin