Napoleonic Wargame Club (NWC)

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by sorolo</i>
<br />I am member of this site by only three months, but I'd like to tell You my opinion.
I think that ten turn in Borodino battle are quite different by ten turn of a little skrmishers action (while I move 100 batallion in the great battle, I can move five times 20 batallion in a litte one=in the first case I gain 10 points, in the second 50).
But obviously the casualties would be very different.
I would so propose this simple formula:
Points = Turns Complete + Victory Level + (Point Loss side 1+Point Loss side 2)/1000
In the same way it would be possible to change the count of Victory Point:
Victory Points = Victory Level + (Point Loss side 1-Point Loss side 2)/100
This way the player would be more interested to play a great battle and to gain a real great victory then to play a lot of little scenarios doing the more turn he can.
I'd like to know Your opinion.

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

That is an interesting idea. I would have to see how it would work out in reality, but tying the points to actual scores might change attutudes regarding those losses.

<b><font color="gold">Ernie Sands
GdD,1e Brig,1eme Div,VI Corps,AdR
President, Colonial Campaign Club
</b></font id="gold">

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Ernie Sands</i>
<br /><blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by sorolo</i>
<br />I am member of this site by only three months, but I'd like to tell You my opinion.
I think that ten turn in Borodino battle are quite different by ten turn of a little skrmishers action (while I move 100 batallion in the great battle, I can move five times 20 batallion in a litte one=in the first case I gain 10 points, in the second 50).
But obviously the casualties would be very different.
I would so propose this simple formula:
Points = Turns Complete + Victory Level + (Point Loss side 1+Point Loss side 2)/1000
In the same way it would be possible to change the count of Victory Point:
Victory Points = Victory Level + (Point Loss side 1-Point Loss side 2)/100
This way the player would be more interested to play a great battle and to gain a real great victory then to play a lot of little scenarios doing the more turn he can.
I'd like to know Your opinion.

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

That is an interesting idea. I would have to see how it would work out in reality, but tying the points to actual scores might change attutudes regarding those losses.

<b><font color="gold">Ernie Sands
GdD,1e Brig,1eme Div,VI Corps,AdR
President, Colonial Campaign Club
</b></font id="gold">

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Here is a sample based on a game I am currently playing:

<b><u>Austrian Points Losses</u></b>

Inf 509
Cav 112
Art 200
Leaders 19

Total = 840

<b><u>French Points Losses</u></b>

Inf 1350
Cav 368
Art 510
Leaders 185

Total = 2413

<b><u>Victory Level = French Major Defeat</u></b>

so by the equation above we would get :

French OBD POINTS : 35 + ( -3 ) + (2413+840)/1000 = 35.25
Austrian OBD POINTS : 35 + 3 + (2413+840)/1000 = 38.25

French Victory POINTS : -3 + (2413-840)/100 = 12.73
Austrian Victory POINTS : 3 + (2413-840)/100 = 15.73

i Like the OBD Points side but have concerns on the VP side. I do not think the losing side should recieve VP's and if they are going to get them, then not as much as shown.



Monsieur le Marechal Baron John Corbin
Duc de Paive
Commanding the Division de Cavalerie de la Jeune Garde
NWC President

While we can certainly come up with improved systems, I do have to say that I wouldn't favor it. No system we could come up with at this point would be worth the problems it would create with the old records where we'd either
1) have to go back and retrofit every game to fit the new system (depending on the details of the system, probably impossible)
or
2) Have two different points basis floating in the same systems.

As I said before, if we were starting from scratch, many of these ideas would have great merit. Since we aren't, they aren't worth the extreme trouble.

FZM Freiherr Gary McClellan
Generalissimus Imperial Austrian Army
Portner Grenadier Battallion
Allied Coalition C-in-C

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Gary McClellan</i>
<br />While we can certainly come up with improved systems, I do have to say that I wouldn't favor it. No system we could come up with at this point would be worth the problems it would create with the old records where we'd either
1) have to go back and retrofit every game to fit the new system (depending on the details of the system, probably impossible)
or
2) Have two different points basis floating in the same systems.

As I said before, if we were starting from scratch, many of these ideas would have great merit. Since we aren't, they aren't worth the extreme trouble.

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Now I can understand that it could be some problem but You know that also in sport competition the rules change.

I'm playing a scenario in which I can do 1 turn in about fifteen minutes and I take 1 point for that, as a player who is becoming crazy deploying his troops in Borodino or Waterloo!
This is clearly an unjustice.

It's so clear to everyone that the scenario duration is not the only feature that We have to take in consideration: i.e. "The Battle of Tarutino, Kutusov Strikes Back" (NRC), last 36 turns with about 130.000 men for side, while "The Battle of Wavre" (CPW) last 54 turns with about 25.000 men for side.
With the actual points scoring, two player that move 130.00 men for 36 turns will have less points that those who move only a pair of division for 54 turns.
I think that We need to consider in the determination of the points, the number of men involved in the battle.

Why We have to remain fixed to a wrong points scoring when We could be better? I think that it would be more important to favor great battles and to reward in the right way those players who spend a lot of time for only one turn moving hundreds of batallion that those who can make in the same time ten turns.

Hoping You agree about that.

Lieutenant Stefano Ostinelli
14ème Infanterie Regiment
2ème Brigade d'Infanterie
3ème Division
VIème Corps Bavarois
L'Armée du Rhin

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by sorolo</i>
<br /><blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Gary McClellan</i>
<br />While we can certainly come up with improved systems, I do have to say that I wouldn't favor it. No system we could come up with at this point would be worth the problems it would create with the old records where we'd either
1) have to go back and retrofit every game to fit the new system (depending on the details of the system, probably impossible)
or
2) Have two different points basis floating in the same systems.

As I said before, if we were starting from scratch, many of these ideas would have great merit. Since we aren't, they aren't worth the extreme trouble.

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Now I can understand that it could be some problem but You know that also in sport competition the rules change (i.e. in football now a victory is 3pts while before was 2pts).

I'm playing a scenario in which I can do 1 turn in about fifteen minutes and I take 1 point for that, as a player who is becoming crazy deploying his troops in Borodino or Waterloo!
This is clearly an unjustice.

It's so clear to everyone that the scenario duration is not the only feature that We have to take in consideration: i.e. "The Battle of Tarutino, Kutusov Strikes Back" (NRC), last 36 turns with about 130.000 men for side, while "The Battle of Wavre" (CPW) last 54 turns with about 25.000 men for side.
With the actual points scoring, two player that move 130.00 men for 36 turns will have less points that those who move only a pair of division for 54 turns.
I think that We need to consider in the counting of the points, the number of men involved in the battle.

Why We have to remain fixed to a wrong points counting system when We could be better? I think that it would be more important to encourage great battles and to reward in the right way those players who spend a lot of time for only one turn moving hundreds of batallion that those who can make in the same time ten turns.

Hoping You agree about that.

Lieutenant Stefano Ostinelli
14ème Infanterie Regiment
2ème Brigade d'Infanterie
3ème Division
VIème Corps Bavarois
L'Armée du Rhin
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Lieutenant Stefano Ostinelli
14ème Infanterie Regiment
2ème Brigade d'Infanterie
3ème Division
VIème Corps Bavarois
L'Armée du Rhin

As I said before, I do not think the system needs changing or should be changed, but it is interesting to discuss the possibilities.

Of course, we have added HOUSE rules that cover some of the inadequacies of the game system (those are very few) and those help to level the point filed, also.

So we have, indirectly, altered the point system, without actually modifying the manner that we arrive at the points.

<b><font color="gold">Ernie Sands
GdD,1e Brig,1eme Div,VI Corps,AdR
President, Colonial Campaign Club
</b></font id="gold">

Stefano, I could not agree with you more than I actually do.

As I said, it is usual for soldiers to advance through ranks faster if they had such a bad luck to serve in war times, and such a great luck to stay alive at the same time. Great campaigns were always something to remember. Skirmishes were not.





<font color="limegreen"><i>
Colonel [url="nihad.rizvanovic@zg.htnet.hr"]Nihad Rizvanovic[/url]
L'Armée du Rhin
VII Saxon Corps

<font color="beige"><i>The only true conquests, and those which awaken no regrets,
are the conquests obtained over ignorance</i></font id="beige">

http://free-zg.t-com.hr/nixon/

</i></font id="limegreen">

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by John Corbin</i>
<br /><blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Ernie Sands</i>
<br /><blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by sorolo</i>
<br />I am member of this site by only three months, but I'd like to tell You my opinion.
I think that ten turn in Borodino battle are quite different by ten turn of a little skrmishers action (while I move 100 batallion in the great battle, I can move five times 20 batallion in a litte one=in the first case I gain 10 points, in the second 50).
But obviously the casualties would be very different.
I would so propose this simple formula:
Points = Turns Complete + Victory Level + (Point Loss side 1+Point Loss side 2)/1000
In the same way it would be possible to change the count of Victory Point:
Victory Points = Victory Level + (Point Loss side 1-Point Loss side 2)/100
This way the player would be more interested to play a great battle and to gain a real great victory then to play a lot of little scenarios doing the more turn he can.
I'd like to know Your opinion.

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

That is an interesting idea. I would have to see how it would work out in reality, but tying the points to actual scores might change attutudes regarding those losses.

<b><font color="gold">Ernie Sands
GdD,1e Brig,1eme Div,VI Corps,AdR
President, Colonial Campaign Club
</b></font id="gold">

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Here is a sample based on a game I am currently playing:

<b><u>Austrian Points Losses</u></b>

Inf 509
Cav 112
Art 200
Leaders 19

Total = 840

<b><u>French Points Losses</u></b>

Inf 1350
Cav 368
Art 510
Leaders 185

Total = 2413

<b><u>Victory Level = French Major Defeat</u></b>

so by the equation above we would get :

French OBD POINTS : 35 + ( -3 ) + (2413+840)/1000 = 35.25
Austrian OBD POINTS : 35 + 3 + (2413+840)/1000 = 38.25

French Victory POINTS : -3 + (2413-840)/100 = 12.73
Austrian Victory POINTS : 3 + (2413-840)/100 = 15.73

i Like the OBD Points side but have concerns on the VP side. I do not think the losing side should recieve VP's and if they are going to get them, then not as much as shown.



Monsieur le Marechal Baron John Corbin
Duc de Paive
Commanding the Division de Cavalerie de la Jeune Garde
NWC President
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Sorry, my Eminent Maréchal, but I was not clear about VP:
there would be only a calculation of them (the second one in Your example) and that point has to be add to the victorious side and subcrtact to the losing side. Or maybe We can consider to subtract to the losing side only the 3pts.



Lieutenant Stefano Ostinelli
14ème Infanterie Regiment
2ème Brigade d'Infanterie
3ème Division
VIème Corps Bavarois
L'Armée du Rhin

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by rizvanon</i>
<br />Stefano, I could not agree with you more than I actually do.

As I said, it is usual for soldiers to advance through ranks faster if they had such a bad luck to serve in war times, and such a great luck to stay alive at the same time. Great campaigns were always something to remember. Skirmishes were not.

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Obviously I respect Your opinion and I'll go in every case to make great battle when I'll be enough able in the game.
But You'll agree with me that looking at the cold number We can not know if They are made by a sum a great battle or small scenarios.


Lieutenant Stefano Ostinelli
14ème Infanterie Regiment
2ème Brigade d'Infanterie
3ème Division
VIème Corps Bavarois
L'Armée du Rhin