Napoleonic Wargame Club (NWC)
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Artillery Units firing from inside infantry squares
https://wargame.ch/board/nwc/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=17086		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  Josef Seidl [ Sun Jan 15, 2023 8:47 pm ]
Post subject:  Artillery Units firing from inside infantry squares
Apologies if this is a repeat post, but I was unable to find anything on the subject in my cursory search of this Forum.

I believe it is a flaw/problem in the game engine that allows for Artillery units to be unlimbered and able to fire from a hex containing an infantry square. In reality, if the unlimbered artillery is inside the square, how can they fire out of it. And if they are not inside the square they should be able to be attacked separately from the square, i.e. not receive the defensive bonuses of the infantry square. Am I missing something here? What are the Club member feelings on this subject?

V/R
Author:  Cezary Pluskwa [ Mon Jan 16, 2023 10:51 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Artillery Units firing from inside infantry squares
Historically, the gun crews hid / fled into the square, the guns left alone. The enemy cavalry didn't always manage to take them to the back.

Best,
Author:  Christian Hecht [ Mon Jan 16, 2023 3:18 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Artillery Units firing from inside infantry squares
Correct, not perfectly simulated, but overall it seems OK.
Author:  Andi Kareil [ Fri Jan 20, 2023 2:37 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Artillery Units firing from inside infantry squares
I've read reports and seen pictures somewhere where the guns wer actually at the corners of the square to fire.
As the others stated, their crews would retreat into the square once cavalry approached (firing a bit of canister first). The cavalry couldn't do anything against the guns alone, taking or spiking them I think was impossible with the square firing at them.
Author:  Bill Peters [ Fri Jan 20, 2023 10:36 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Artillery Units firing from inside infantry squares
No game is perfect and really only a real-life simulation of the period could capture all of this. I think the old Field of Glory computer game had something like that but my memory on that is old. The gun crew would break for the square and thus the guns would fall silent but they would spring back into action once the threat was removed.
Author:  SLudwig [ Sat Feb 04, 2023 1:29 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Artillery Units firing from inside infantry squares
Andi Kareil wrote:
I've read reports and seen pictures somewhere where the guns wer actually at the corners of the square to fire.


In the Egypt campaign???
Author:  Dean Webster [ Sun Feb 12, 2023 12:09 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Artillery Units firing from inside infantry squares
The full 1970's movie Waterloo is available on Youtube. I remember watching it as a kid, and I think it has always influenced my perception of how armies moved and fought at the time.

Not saying it's necessarily always accurate, but it does show a number of things, troops moving, skirmishers to the front, etc.

One thing it shows is gunners firing at charging cavalry, then running back to shelter under the bayonets of the squares.

If you've never watched the movie before, it's worth a look.
Author:  Alexey Tartyshev [ Sun May 21, 2023 1:47 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Artillery Units firing from inside infantry squares
I did some research on this and would recommend a simple house rule: do not position squares in the same hex as artillery.
To summarize, gunners seeking cover in squares would be an emergency response with an extremely negative impact on the battery's ability to operate cohesively as a unit.

Considering the existing engine capabilities, the best way to handle batteries in the same hex as infantry squares would be either:
1. "Uncrewing" the battery if deployed in the same hex as an infantry square.
2. Preventing artillery from firing if deployed in the same hex as an infantry square.
3. Applying a severe (-90%?) negative fire modifier if deployed in the same hex as an infantry square.
In my view, option 1 is a more realistic representation, while option 3 is the most generous to the artillery.


_________________________________________________________________

By gathering numerous sources together, it can be generalized that:

1. Squares could provide cover for individual gunners, but not for batteries as integral units.

2. Gunners seeking refuge in a square would not have been able to continue firing.

3. The process of taking cover in a square would severely disrupt a battery for the rest of the day, leading to a loss of command and control as the battery would be disintegrated into several parts: the artillery train would be sent to the rear, battery horses would be sent to the rear, some men would make it to a nearby square, some gunners would pack up and head home for good, and the unlucky ones would attempt to take cover under the guns with questionable odds of surviving the day. Overall, such a battery would be scattered, unmanned, out of ammo, immobilized, and with damaged, misplaced, or captured gear.

"Quite often, when the gunners were immediately threatened by cavalry, they simply left the pieces and ran from the battlefield. After Waterloo, Wellington wrote that the gunners who ran into squares before the cavalry and then returned to serve the guns once the charges had passed were rather the exception than the rule."

4. For the aforementioned reasons, the common tactical response of artillery commanders threatened by a cavalry charge was to pack up early and reposition, rather than risking the disintegration or loss of the battery.


As of version 4.06 and given a 100-meter by 100-meter hex environment, the game engine handles the above points differently:

• Even a small square of 100 men, with a maximum possible front of less than 7-8 meters, provides guaranteed anti-cavalry cover for any battery, regardless of its size. However, the historical deployment of a typical 8-gun battery would require a significant amount of space: around 100 meters to the front (the space for the guns and intervals in between) and between 30-100 meters in depth (depending on the situation), allowing for the limbers, the battery's draft horses, and the artillery train wagons with their own horses. Thus, a typical 8-gun battery deployed into battle would require nearly a full hex to operate as a unit and could not have been protected as an integral unit and covered by a battalion square of any size.

• As of version 4.06, if a battery is located within the same hex as an infantry square, it will continue to fire as usual without any negative fire modifiers. The "behind the scenes" processes of gunners taking cover in squares and the act of sending an artillery train and battery horses to the rear are not being modelled, and there is no negative impact on the artillery battery's cohesion, rate of fire, ability to manoeuvre, etc.

In summary, in my opinion it is better to use a house rule for a more historically accurate tactical feel and hope that a fix will be implemented in later patches.
Author:  Christian Hecht [ Sun May 21, 2023 2:08 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Artillery Units firing from inside infantry squares
Indeed, the effects that a square can have need some refinement, not only in this aspect but others too.
Author:  Alexey Tartyshev [ Sun May 21, 2023 2:15 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Artillery Units firing from inside infantry squares
Christian Hecht wrote:
Indeed, the effects that a square can have need some refinement, not only in this aspect but others too.


What is the feedback form process thesedays?
I can see the Feedback Section of the forum is dedicated to the scnerious rather then engine changes requests.
Author:  Christian Hecht [ Sun May 21, 2023 4:18 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Artillery Units firing from inside infantry squares
Well you could post in the main section(viewforum.php?f=45) instead of a specific title.
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