Napoleonic Wargame Club (NWC)

I noted after installing one of the updates (I think it was 4.04 but might have been 4.03) that the VPs for leader losses has dramatically increased. I now play with the VPs For Leader Casualities optional rule OFF as a result.

You can do a workaround for this by just making up your own scale of leader VPs if you wish. Since the values are not unique per leader, but rather generic, just come up with a chart of VPs you will use to determine the additional VP count and during the game email your opponent with the new counts and sum up the Victory Conditions at the end of the game using the values you arrived at. The Leader Casualites dialog shows the leaders and type of loss (k=Kill, c=capture, W=Wound) so you will know how many points to assign each.

I have a list of the older values and I may start doing something like that for future games.

I think I saw where if an army leader is captured it came out to over 500 VPs.

I am glad that this is an optional rule and will be coming up with an Excel spreadsheet I can use to calculate the values eventually.

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Generalfeldmarschall Wilhelm Prinz Peters von Dennewitz

3. Husaren-Regiment, Reserve-Kavallerie, Preußischen Armee-Korps

Honarary CO of Garde-Ulanen Regiment, Garde-Grenadier Kavallerie

NWC Founding Member

For Club Games: I prefer the Single Phase mode of play. I prefer to play with the following options OFF:

MDF, NRO, MTD, CMR, PR, MIM, NDM, OMR (ver 4.09)

Was this intended?
I can't remember reading it on any changelog.

Yes, I guess they felt that leaders should be worth more for VPs. Ask Rich more about the reasoning that went into it.

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Generalfeldmarschall Wilhelm Prinz Peters von Dennewitz

3. Husaren-Regiment, Reserve-Kavallerie, Preußischen Armee-Korps

Honarary CO of Garde-Ulanen Regiment, Garde-Grenadier Kavallerie

NWC Founding Member

For Club Games: I prefer the Single Phase mode of play. I prefer to play with the following options OFF:

MDF, NRO, MTD, CMR, PR, MIM, NDM, OMR (ver 4.09)

It states it in the Changelog for v 4.01

Leaders are now worth so much that several of my games have degenerated into leader grabbing actions. Either turn off that Optional Rule or do a recalculation. Most scenarios were playtested and balanced with the option on, but with lower values.

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Generalfeldmarschall Scott Kronprinz "Vorwärts" Ludwig von Preußen
Kommandeur des Königlich-Preußischen Armee-Korps
Chief of Staff (CoS) of the Allied Coalition
Allied Coalition Webmaster & Club Website Support

Maybe they are really too much, but then think of players who agree on a sudden death when their army leader is killed.
So shifting the outcome of a battle by loosing precious officers isn't something new for the community. these battle may turn out to by Pyrrhic victories in the end.
And didn't we want that players take more care of their army?
Somehow nice that the officers get this attention now, maybe units get them too with more detailed VP given to sub-types like guard units.

Yes, I think that many of us played with the rule that if "El Supremo" is taken captive or killed (not wounded) that the game was over. Lose Wellington and its a true Pyrrhic victory. Same with Charles, Napoleon or Kutusov. Not here to argue which one is more important - the entire point of that house rule was that losing an army leader was a serious thing. Think of Gustavus Adolphus dying at Lutzen during the TYW. But in that case the Protestants did win the battle.

So its a House Rule and not something we ever mandated.

For me a battle is two (or a third) army lining up and fighting and the one that inflicts more losses and holds the battlefield wins regardless of leaders lost. If you lose too many leaders in this series its reflected in the Command Test anyway.

I remember emailing with John about having a code change to use the Morale grade as a Victory Point determinant for units. The M&P series does that. NB series does not. It would seem that if with the leader casualty VP subroutine with the values for each factored in that this also could be done. I know nothing about the code, though, and think that if it would be an EASY thing to code John would have done that in his lifetime. Ask Rich H. about whether the morale grade could be factored in to the VP total for units. He and Hendrik would know more about. I totally agree that if it CAN be done its something that could be part of the code. I would NOT make it an Optional rule either. John was against adding in a lot of those.

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Generalfeldmarschall Wilhelm Prinz Peters von Dennewitz

3. Husaren-Regiment, Reserve-Kavallerie, Preußischen Armee-Korps

Honarary CO of Garde-Ulanen Regiment, Garde-Grenadier Kavallerie

NWC Founding Member

For Club Games: I prefer the Single Phase mode of play. I prefer to play with the following options OFF:

MDF, NRO, MTD, CMR, PR, MIM, NDM, OMR (ver 4.09)

4.05 adjusts VPs for leaders:

The full comparison looks like this:

Napoleonic Battles - Leader Casaulties Calculation

Introduction:
Here we will contrast the old and new methods with calculating VP Casualties in the Napoleonic Battles series.
An alternate method is offered here for those that want to use the VP Leader Casualty rule but use the old values.

Here is the formula for the old calculation for the option rule:
Casualty are calculated as follows:
The Leader’s Command value is converted into a numeric value using
the assignment A = 6, B = 5, …, F = 1.
To this value, the Leader’s Leadership value is added using the same
numeric assignment. Thus value for Leadership plus value for Command ratings

Depending on the command level of the Leader, the value is multiplied
by a factor:
o Army Leader => Factor = 4
o Wing or Corps Leader => Factor = 3
o Division Leader => Factor = 2
o Brigade Leader => Factor = 1 (no change)

Finally, the value is modified according to how the Leader became a
casualty:
o Killed => No change
o Wounded => Value is halved
o Captured => Value is doubled

So using the old calculation if Napoleon (Command A, Leadership A) is captured he is worth 6 + 6 = 12 x 4 = 48 x 2 = 96

Here is the new formula for the calculation for the option rule:
The Leader’s Command value is converted into a numeric value using the assignment A = 6, B = 5, …, F = 1.
To this value, the Leader’s Leadership value is added using the same numeric assignment. (Thus value for Leadership is added to the value for Command)
Depending on the command level of the Leader, the value is multiplied by a factor:
• Army Leader => Factor = 24
• Wing or Corps Leader => Factor = 12
• Division Leader => Factor = 6
• Brigade Leader => Factor = 2
• Finally, the value is modified according to how the Leader became a casualty:
• Killed => No change
• Wounded => Value is halved
• Captured => Value is doubled

Using the new calculation If Napoleon is captured he is worth 6 + 6 = 12 x 24 = 288 x 2 = 576

Its quite a change. I could see twice the amount but ANY army leader is now worth 6x the old value when captured.

Frankly I think that if the leader is killed he should be worth more than captured. Think of if Lannes had been captured at Aspern-Essling rather than killed. He is set free immediately upon the end of a victorious French campaign in Austria, etc. Napoleon thus has one of his best corps commanders back.

The original intention as thought of by Jim Rose and John Tiller was that a capture was a huge "feather in your cap" ... I would like to see the K result get more points. And this can be done between individuals. So nothing in the program really mandates how you calculate victory. We always could go our own way. Those that like to do bookkeeping can count the Guard troops higher than regulars and Militia less than both. It is just now its another step we have to take if we want to keep the old system of scoring. Its not a show-stopper.

The serious issue though is "how much will this affect play balance?" Players looking to safeguard their leaders now do so in an unhistorical manner. The great armies of the past led from the front. Throughout the entire Napoleonic Wars, Napoleon was only wounded a small amount of times. Consider that for a moment. Think over all of the times he was exposed to cannon fire or sometimes would go down to the front and personally invoke courage.

But the scenarios were playtested with the old rule in place. Will it be a case of "well they all suffer an equal amount of losses." It would be interesting to go back into some of the old game files and check the results. We almost always used the Leader Casualty rule in our playtest games on the teams I led.

If I can find any of the old game files I will check them out and post results here.

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Generalfeldmarschall Wilhelm Prinz Peters von Dennewitz

3. Husaren-Regiment, Reserve-Kavallerie, Preußischen Armee-Korps

Honarary CO of Garde-Ulanen Regiment, Garde-Grenadier Kavallerie

NWC Founding Member

For Club Games: I prefer the Single Phase mode of play. I prefer to play with the following options OFF:

MDF, NRO, MTD, CMR, PR, MIM, NDM, OMR (ver 4.09)

Here is my first check of the two formulas for calculating the VPs for leader casualties. Its from a game of The Battle of Marengo (turn 66 of 78) I concluded last Fall with a non-member of the NWC.

NB-LCC-400-404-Battle of Marengo.jpg

The victory point spread for the two games is not really that much but take it to the higher level such as Leipzig's Dennewitz or Leipzig and this could become quite a difference in points.

Here are the two Victory Dialogs side by side for comparison:

NB-VDs-400-404-Battle of Marengo.jpg

As you can see little has changed in the overall victory points (+13 VPs). In the 4.00 ver. there was only 21 VPs separating the two counts whereas in the 4.04 game it was 34 points. So in this case it was a simple matter of the two values almost canceling each other out. This may not have been a good test case to use as my friend and I were VERY careful to not lose leaders.

I will try and find some files from big battles and see how this all works. I have one from Paco and Ken Jones I could use. They were playing the huge four day Battle of Leipzig which might give us more of a comparison/ratio check.

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Generalfeldmarschall Wilhelm Prinz Peters von Dennewitz

3. Husaren-Regiment, Reserve-Kavallerie, Preußischen Armee-Korps

Honarary CO of Garde-Ulanen Regiment, Garde-Grenadier Kavallerie

NWC Founding Member

For Club Games: I prefer the Single Phase mode of play. I prefer to play with the following options OFF:

MDF, NRO, MTD, CMR, PR, MIM, NDM, OMR (ver 4.09)

Thanks for the comparison.
Higher leaders have a stronger impact now, in your example the army leader is about 6 times the VP value compared to before, but I like that it that way.
You can argue if killed or captured should be worth more, in your example the overall outcome of the campaign might be a factor. Lets say a leader is captured and the campaign is lost, who knows when that captured leader comes back, if at all, and what is done to get him back. So that might have consequences outside the battle/campaign that are hard to judge.

The wider spread between low and high ranks will, at least I think so, have a good impact on the behavior of players. Brigade leaders are still right at the front and used like before, but high ranks like corps or army leaders are now used only if the situation is critical. Afaik that is overall what was done by these leaders historically, or am I wrong?
Napoleon didn't always jump right into the middle of the action, but he did so if the situation demanded it, and afaik so did his corps commanders. I think we will see this behavior too with the changed VP values.

Christian - you and I rarely agree on much. In the future I will avoid responding to your comments. Its just better that way for all of us. We are always on the other side of any discussion and its just best for the club if I keep silent about your observations. I hope that you will respect my request to do the same for mine. Thanks much in advance!

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Generalfeldmarschall Wilhelm Prinz Peters von Dennewitz

3. Husaren-Regiment, Reserve-Kavallerie, Preußischen Armee-Korps

Honarary CO of Garde-Ulanen Regiment, Garde-Grenadier Kavallerie

NWC Founding Member

For Club Games: I prefer the Single Phase mode of play. I prefer to play with the following options OFF:

MDF, NRO, MTD, CMR, PR, MIM, NDM, OMR (ver 4.09)

Not sure if I offended you with my reply, if so it surely wasn't my intention, sorry.

The NWC, like any other club, is most alive if discussions are going on, there are times I'm jealous on the ACWGC that seems to have more members that actively participate on the forum. So in this case I just posted my observations and thoughts about the new VP values, and I hope they play out good despite not being the norm when the games were released because the changes sound promising in my view.

My final comments on this are pretty simple: unless one player loses high ranking leaders I see the VPs canceling each out. It all will be a matter of how many leaders we commit to melees. THAT is when the real luck factor comes into play. The other being for those that do not protect their leaders and leave them alone in a hex where the enemy can grab them on their move. Stacking a leader with a lone supply wagon for instance.

I would advocate using the rule at this point. Just know to keep your leaders out of melees. The +10% bonus in melee is certainly not worth it.

While I still do not agree with the reasoning, the good players will protect their leaders and keep them out of harm's way. Well that is unless its "Lucky Paco" who put Ney on the front line in a game he and I played of the big Berlin Campaign and he escaped capture despite me mauling the battalion!

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Generalfeldmarschall Wilhelm Prinz Peters von Dennewitz

3. Husaren-Regiment, Reserve-Kavallerie, Preußischen Armee-Korps

Honarary CO of Garde-Ulanen Regiment, Garde-Grenadier Kavallerie

NWC Founding Member

For Club Games: I prefer the Single Phase mode of play. I prefer to play with the following options OFF:

MDF, NRO, MTD, CMR, PR, MIM, NDM, OMR (ver 4.09)